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  #16  
Old 5th June 2012, 05:26 PM
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So have living conditions for those in the 3rd world actually deteriorated, have they stayed the same or have they improved but seemingly regressed relative to our own improvement?
  #17  
Old 5th June 2012, 07:22 PM
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You could go look it up, you know.

You'll find that the "third world" is a pretty diverse place of many people, with no one story across them.

In any case, if, say things get better for seven people while getting worse for three people, does that make things OK?
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  #18  
Old 5th June 2012, 08:04 PM
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Oh, my mistake, since your post made several references to the global effects of capitalism I thought you may actually have some insight instead of a pithy response.

You referenced Ghana and Pakistan in your post so perhaps you could educate me on them?
  #19  
Old 5th June 2012, 08:30 PM
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You asked about the "third world", which is a much bigger area than Ghana or Pakistan. No need for the arsey comment.

You can appreciate that I don't receive all my information through the internet, but also through things like newspapers, magazines and books. Often, as I am sure you can appreciate, I don't remember exactly where I got the information from. The good thing about the internet is that one can simply search, for example, here's one on water in Ghana:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7761588.stm

Regarding Peshawar, I saw some photos earlier this year in a German magazine taken in a country in Africa (like many I lump the continent which is bigger than Europe all together) which contains packaging from outside of Africa and dumped, and is then set on fire close to where people live. I now withdraw what I said about Peshawar as I had misunderstood something.
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  #20  
Old 5th June 2012, 08:45 PM
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This forums a addiction
  #21  
Old 5th June 2012, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
You asked about the "third world", which is a much bigger area than Ghana or Pakistan. No need for the arsey comment.

You can appreciate that I don't receive all my information through the internet, but also through things like newspapers, magazines and books. Often, as I am sure you can appreciate, I don't remember exactly where I got the information from. The good thing about the internet is that one can simply search, for example, here's one on water in Ghana:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7761588.stm

Regarding Peshawar, I saw some photos earlier this year in a German magazine taken in a country in Africa (like many I lump the continent which is bigger than Europe all together) which contains packaging from outside of Africa and dumped, and is then set on fire close to where people live. I now withdraw what I said about Peshawar as I had misunderstood something.
Goodness me you're condescending.

Your original post made multiple references to the global winners and losers of capitalism. It's generally accepted that the 3rd world are the losers. A question therefore about the effects felt by these people in the 3rd world is valid.
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Old 5th June 2012, 09:33 PM
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Condescending? Bit of projecting going on there, perhaps

To return to your question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelWool View Post
So have living conditions for those in the 3rd world actually deteriorated, have they stayed the same or have they improved but seemingly regressed relative to our own improvement?
I asked whether you meant the whole "third world", and you said you meant only Pakistan and Ghana. I gave an example to back up my claim about Ghana, but not to Pakistan due to the aforementioned misunderstanding.

Where have I not been clear? With regards to the winners and losers, here's another link for you:


http://fortresseurope.blogspot.com/2006/01/fortress-europe.html


I'm away from tomorrow at a work project for nine days, so you'll have a break from me (though not as long as last time).
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  #23  
Old 5th June 2012, 10:07 PM
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Okay, well, errrr missing you then.
  #24  
Old 6th June 2012, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Beyga View Post
Good read, One is Frowned upon due to the life's destroyed by drug taking not just theirs but others around then.
I am not saying that drug addictions are something to be taken lightly on the contrary but there are many more different kinds of addictions just as harmful or even more harmful in some cases that are not even looked at as addictions. Heroin abuse for example is something terrible that can destroy whole families (as many other drugs) but what about addiction to power for example? Maybe this is the most addictive of all and it can certainly destroy much more than a few families ((was Hitler addicted) and he was famous with his amphetamines as well)
  #25  
Old 6th June 2012, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by fiordearg View Post
the accumulation of wealth is the ultimate driver of human society. We see the results of unchecked greed now
If greed isnt an addiction I do not know what is here is a nice read on it :

Looking at Greed as an Addictive Dysfunction
We are a society that is addicted to abundance and extravagance.
Published on December 21, 2008 by Mel Schwartz, L.C.S.W. in A Shift of Mind

The saga of the Bernard Madoff debacle, AIG bonuses and the host of other repugnant behaviors actually reveal a terrible dysfunction in our culture, which has now come to our screeching attention. We are a society that is addicted and ultimately maddened by our obsession with profligate abundance and extravagance. How inconceivable is it that a man who has attained so much success and wealth and earned the rewards of privilege and prestige, feels compelled to ruin himself and his investors in his vainglorious attempt to have yet more? When is enough yet enough?

When one is an addict the answer is never. Regrettably, Madoff is far from alone. We, as a culture, are prone to this addiction. And you need not be wealthy to suffer from this affliction. The scourge of many wealthy may be greed, while the burden of the middle class is runaway materialism. After all, the greed of the elite typically requires relentless consumption by the rest of us. Consumerism is the requisite for the ongoing greed. Without it, the wheels fall of the train.

One might argue that lining up well before dawn to be amongst the first to crash through the gate as the doors open on Black Friday of Thanksgiving weekend is simply due to financial needs; the plight of the middle and working class. Surely our economy leaves countless people in tragic peril. Yet, there were undoubtedly individuals in that herd that are driven by the brainwashing of runaway materialism. They may not be sacrificing their sleep solely for diapers or food, but out of their compulsion for the quick and short-lived fix of purchasing.

I am arguing from generality of course, and millions of people fortunately do not align with the cultural illness that I am describing. Yet, many millions do, and their plight needs to be appreciated. The ongoing message that we receive is to buy, buy, buy. It is both overt and subliminal. The pervasive message in our culture is that you'll be happier after you make your next purchase. You'll be more attractive, sexier, smarter, ---life will be better.

After 9/11, George Bush urged us to get back to normal in one particular way: Go out and shop. In every other way, we were to be seen as a country under attack. But put that aside so long as you can keep the cash register ringing. The American deity is the economy. It is our unifying religion.

What likely began as a master plan of the leaders of the economic universe, an ever- expanding GNP, ultimately trapped the very architects themselves. No longer content to simply be far wealthier than everyone else, they became literally addicted to this need to satiate their egos with more and more. But in the throes of such an addiction, more is never enough. No sooner do you reach the next rung of wealth, than you look longingly upward toward the next tier. Madoff is a sick man; not simply due to the devastation that he unleashed on so many, but because his craving is no different than a junkie prepared to do anything for their next fix.

Greed and rampant materialism are the drugs. And they conspire to deprive us of balanced and joyful lives. They have us distort our lives, neglect our relationships and impoverish our souls. This dysfunction is as real and as destructive as any other disorder. It contains elements of obsessive/compulsive disorders and at the core renders the individual incapable of living a fruitful life.

The irony is that many of these fallen titans are the very same people that we had so revered. It was only a few moments back into our past when tales of a hundred thousand dollar rug for an office were seen as a testament to one’s success, their bragging rights. The tide of opinion has turned quickly as we now line up to verbally assault those we had recently worshipped. What has changed? Has the precipitous economic downturn recast our values? If so, fine. A sobering reality can shift our values, but it would benefit us to proclaim it as such. If the hero becomes villainous through no change of his or her own then our perspective has grossly shifted. Taking ownership of that shift underscores and substantiates a healthy change.

From this vantage we can see that a recession, let alone a severe one, begins to look like the plague. With a recession, it is as if the drug dealer has left town for a very long time. And we are left to deal with jonesing. Without the ability to spend and spend, we might come to deal with the gripping question of who we are and how we are living our lives. And hopefully we may redress our imbalance as we break through the addiction. The paradox is, that recession may really be relief from the addiction, in disguise. The pain and loss are real enough, but the opportunity lies in reconsidering how we choose to live.
  #26  
Old 6th June 2012, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelWool View Post
So have living conditions for those in the 3rd world actually deteriorated, have they stayed the same or have they improved but seemingly regressed relative to our own improvement?
the third world can be on your doorstep or the streets of your town. It's not location driven. The term itself dates back to the cold war, so in itself is an anachronism.
  #27  
Old 6th June 2012, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l`pool`bg View Post
If greed isnt an addiction I do not know what is here is a nice read on it :

Looking at Greed as an Addictive Dysfunction
We are a society that is addicted to abundance and extravagance.
Published on December 21, 2008 by Mel Schwartz, L.C.S.W. in A Shift of Mind

The saga of the Bernard Madoff debacle, AIG bonuses and the host of other repugnant behaviors actually reveal a terrible dysfunction in our culture, which has now come to our screeching attention. We are a society that is addicted and ultimately maddened by our obsession with profligate abundance and extravagance. How inconceivable is it that a man who has attained so much success and wealth and earned the rewards of privilege and prestige, feels compelled to ruin himself and his investors in his vainglorious attempt to have yet more? When is enough yet enough?

When one is an addict the answer is never. Regrettably, Madoff is far from alone. We, as a culture, are prone to this addiction. And you need not be wealthy to suffer from this affliction. The scourge of many wealthy may be greed, while the burden of the middle class is runaway materialism. After all, the greed of the elite typically requires relentless consumption by the rest of us. Consumerism is the requisite for the ongoing greed. Without it, the wheels fall of the train.

One might argue that lining up well before dawn to be amongst the first to crash through the gate as the doors open on Black Friday of Thanksgiving weekend is simply due to financial needs; the plight of the middle and working class. Surely our economy leaves countless people in tragic peril. Yet, there were undoubtedly individuals in that herd that are driven by the brainwashing of runaway materialism. They may not be sacrificing their sleep solely for diapers or food, but out of their compulsion for the quick and short-lived fix of purchasing.

I am arguing from generality of course, and millions of people fortunately do not align with the cultural illness that I am describing. Yet, many millions do, and their plight needs to be appreciated. The ongoing message that we receive is to buy, buy, buy. It is both overt and subliminal. The pervasive message in our culture is that you'll be happier after you make your next purchase. You'll be more attractive, sexier, smarter, ---life will be better.

After 9/11, George Bush urged us to get back to normal in one particular way: Go out and shop. In every other way, we were to be seen as a country under attack. But put that aside so long as you can keep the cash register ringing. The American deity is the economy. It is our unifying religion.

What likely began as a master plan of the leaders of the economic universe, an ever- expanding GNP, ultimately trapped the very architects themselves. No longer content to simply be far wealthier than everyone else, they became literally addicted to this need to satiate their egos with more and more. But in the throes of such an addiction, more is never enough. No sooner do you reach the next rung of wealth, than you look longingly upward toward the next tier. Madoff is a sick man; not simply due to the devastation that he unleashed on so many, but because his craving is no different than a junkie prepared to do anything for their next fix.

Greed and rampant materialism are the drugs. And they conspire to deprive us of balanced and joyful lives. They have us distort our lives, neglect our relationships and impoverish our souls. This dysfunction is as real and as destructive as any other disorder. It contains elements of obsessive/compulsive disorders and at the core renders the individual incapable of living a fruitful life.

The irony is that many of these fallen titans are the very same people that we had so revered. It was only a few moments back into our past when tales of a hundred thousand dollar rug for an office were seen as a testament to one’s success, their bragging rights. The tide of opinion has turned quickly as we now line up to verbally assault those we had recently worshipped. What has changed? Has the precipitous economic downturn recast our values? If so, fine. A sobering reality can shift our values, but it would benefit us to proclaim it as such. If the hero becomes villainous through no change of his or her own then our perspective has grossly shifted. Taking ownership of that shift underscores and substantiates a healthy change.

From this vantage we can see that a recession, let alone a severe one, begins to look like the plague. With a recession, it is as if the drug dealer has left town for a very long time. And we are left to deal with jonesing. Without the ability to spend and spend, we might come to deal with the gripping question of who we are and how we are living our lives. And hopefully we may redress our imbalance as we break through the addiction. The paradox is, that recession may really be relief from the addiction, in disguise. The pain and loss are real enough, but the opportunity lies in reconsidering how we choose to live.
the fall of the celtic tiger property bubble has caused many irish people to reconsider their belief in wealth and property
  #28  
Old 6th June 2012, 01:21 AM
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This forums a addiction
i think you're onto something here
  #29  
Old 6th June 2012, 01:54 AM
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Speculate to accumulate.

Invest (players) = win things

Win things = Revenue (winnings, sponsorships, more fans, merchandise etc).

Revenue = more money to invest (%age thereof)

Etc etc etc.

Therefore, if a club (or any business) is successful (on and off the pitch) it will make money and expand (become more successful) on the understanding it is run properly (so it is in the owners best interest to get it right).

Isn't that what we all want?

Money makes the world go round, wanting it to get a better a life is an instinct not a greed. Wanting more when you have more than you can ever spend is the greed.

I read that David Beckham wears a new pair of Boots for every game at £300 a pop when us mere mortals have to work all week to make ends meet and there's the people in actual poverty. There's something very wrong with that.

Beckham gets praised for charity work. IMO he should be doing all he can to help people because he is in a priviliged position. It's the guys that have barely nothing that give what they can that deserve the praise.

Sorry, this turned from my point of view about money to a rant.
Funny how only rich people are greedy?

There are millions of us who receive more money than we need to live reasonably and we use it to purchase various gadgets, trinkets and ornaments that are not only simply unnecessary, but usually involve;

a) the physical destruction or contamination of areas of land that are home to people who are much poorer than us
b) the exploitation of raw material reserves that should belong to those people
c) the exploitation of their poverty to extract the raw materials and produce these goods with practically no reward to the indigenous poor population

....and we happily go along with our frivolous purchases despite knowing all of this, but still feel free to lecture others about their greed just because they are rich.

Bullshit.
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  #30  
Old 6th June 2012, 02:36 AM
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user name;1866626]as for the OP... I'm delving more into the world of addiction (from an academic perspective ) ... and discussing this subject with people who have used substances for many years... once they cease using, it seems that the 'addiction' doesn't stop... it can transfer over to other things, that may be less harmful (certainly in the case of heroin) but can still be problematic in someones life...

I've been looking at cocaine users and studies surrounding it's use which suggests that the damage caused can affect peoples ability to change patterns of behaviour... the 'elasticity' in the brain is lost, so they continue on this cycle...
That is my view of the matter aswell addictions never stop completely and can be substituted and what you substitute it for is mainly connected with the environment, habbits willingness to change, brain power, damage made already and probably many more.
fundamentally re 'addiction' I think it's a case of 'filling a void'...

what does one do with ones existence? what do we want from life? what really is the driving force?

a pursuit of things that 'enrich' our (essentially) spiritual being, or things that distance us from that...

And probably this is why Intelligent people use more drugs . Many of the leading scientists of our world were known for it as well (Einstein being the one that pops my mind immediately and he used to like LSD very much from what i have read)
Stu Ungar another example ( the best poker player of all times)(and one of the most complexed personality i had the chance to read about)) who said once to someone that he liked what cocaine was giving him and he didn't want to be helped. He was truly a genious and he knew exactly how bad it was but i guess the pros outweighed the cons for him . It was once in his life (from what i have read ) that he decided to quit and it was not for him and for his family and his daugher mainly . At a point of his life after winning everything (two times in a row World Series Of Poker main event winner in a row -1980 , 1981 and three times winner of the second most prestigious event known as Amarillo Slim's Super Bowl of Poker again two in a row) and then more than 15 years of brutal cocaine abuse he realises what he has done (not to himself and to his family again) cleans up for a few moths and produces the unthinkable and what I and many others believe to be one of the greatest come backs of any human being in human history. I will actually post the story cause it is quite good :
In 1997, Ungar was deeply in debt, but received the $10,000 buy-in to the WSOP main event from fellow poker pro and friend Billy Baxter. Ungar clearly showed physical damage from his years of addiction, most notably to his nasal membranes, which he attempted to hide with blue sunglasses.[5] In fact, Ungar had just received the buy-in from Baxter moments before the tournament started and was the last person added to the roster, just mere seconds before the signup closed.[1]

Ungar was exhausted on the tournament's first day as he had been up for over 24 hours straight trying to raise or borrow enough money to play in the event. At one point midway through the first day of play, Ungar began to fall asleep at his table and told Mike Sexton (who was also playing) he didn't think he could make it. After encouragement from Sexton and a tongue lashing from Baxter, Ungar settled in and made it through the day.[5]

During the tournament, Ungar kept a picture of his daughter Stefanie in his wallet, and regularly called her with updates on his progress. Following an up and down first day, Ungar showed up for each subsequent day well rested and mentally sharp. He would go on to amass a large chip lead and carry the lead into the final table. Ungar was so highly regarded at this point that local bookies made him the favorite to win the tournament over the entire field, an extreme rarity.[1]

Ungar went on to win the main event for the record-setting third time. After his victory, which was taped for broadcast by ESPN, Ungar was interviewed by Gabe Kaplan, and he showed the picture of his daughter to the camera, and dedicated his win to her. He and Baxter split the $1,000,000 first prize evenly. Ungar was dubbed "The Comeback Kid" by the Las Vegas media because of the span (sixteen years) between his main event wins, as well as his past drug abuse.[4]

During the 1997 WSOP, Ungar wore a pair of round, cobalt blue tinted sunglasses to, according to co-biographer Peter Alson, "hide the fact that his nostrils had collapsed from cocaine abuse."
Four moths after this he was broke again and a year after he was death.
So again i got carried away but it shows that the smarter the person the bigger the drive to experience things that life itself cannot give. It also shows that one can overtake any addiction if the purpose in his / hers mind is just and worthed even for a brief period even after being hooked for so long and i would imagine a lot of irreversible damage has already been done.

'scuse the bullet points all over the shop but the subject opens lots of avenues for discussion...
Yes mate I am afraid the topic is vast.

But all this doesn't help the fact that there are many things in our world that people can get addicted to that are far more dangerous to the society and are not even looked at as such and treated as such. In my pessimistic view on this matter it creates larger problems (an ill society) that we will have to deal with in the near future .

Last edited by l`pool`bg; 6th June 2012 at 03:05 AM.
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