Lucas

[Dids]

The lads going to be a star. I've always said it, from the moment i first saw him play. STAR

[konghøst]

the lads going to be a star. I've always said it, from the moment i first saw him play. Star

+1

[RedNoodle]

You know starting "This" again is going to result in a thread that decends into high levels of abuse and general muppetry?

[Finlay's Dad]

Some ref's appear to have it in for him big time. In no way was that a yellow card tonight. Hardly a fuckin challenge and he gets booked for it. It's not the first time he's been harshly dealt with either. Then you have Cuellar's tackle on Gerrard that doesn't warrant a yellow?!

[user name]

the kid shows character and spirit... and i like that, me...

[hyva sami]

Some ref's appear to have it in for him big time. In no way was that a yellow card tonight. Hardly a fuckin challenge and he gets booked for it. It's not the first time he's been harshly dealt with either. Then you have Cuellar's tackle on Gerrard that doesn't warrant a yellow?!

He gets away with a few as well though to be fair.

I'm glad people are starting to see how big this lad could be for us. Now for Babel to realise his potential.

[Dids]

But every time there's less and less as more people accept that he isn't really that bad. In fact hes quite good. Hard as nails and nails opposition players.

[scaton]

One of the first times I've thought he was one of the best players on the park tonight.

And by a long way, the best in the centre of our midfield.

[user name]

But every time there's less and less as more people accept that he isn't really that bad. In fact hes quite good. Hard as nails and nails opposition players.

it's the 'night of a thousand great sigs'... :)

[Eising agreed]

The lads going to be a star. I've always said it, from the moment i first saw him play. STAR

You could build a team around those little five yard passes you really could!

There was a point on 68 minutes where he did something that if he did it a bit more would make him a better player. He passed a ball and moved forward into space to receive it back, (he then got fouled when taking the ball forward) if he does that more often he could be a star. He hasn't been doing enough of that for me recently.

Got booked and then went straight in with an important tackle, committed but not rash. He is not shit.

[user name]

You could build a team around those little five yard passes you really could!

There was a point on 68 minutes where he did something that if he did it a bit more would make him a better player. He passed a ball and moved forward into space to receive it back, 9he then got fouled when taking the ball forward) if he does that more often he could be a star. He hasn't been doing enough of that for me recently.

Got booked and then went straight in with an important tackle, committed but not rash. He is not shit.

fact...

[Old Big Ears]

But every time there's less and less as more people accept that he isn't really that bad. In fact hes quite good. Hard as nails and nails opposition players.

Hang on a second. What you're saying is that Rafa actually knows more about football than the people who only come on this forum after we have lost - behave.

[Dids]

One of the first times I've thought he was one of the best players on the park tonight.

And by a long way, the best in the centre of our midfield.

Praise indeed,

[LFC vs PFC]

The lads going to be a star. I've always said it, from the moment i first saw him play. STAR

You mean he only turns up for night time games?

[Blazingfury1992]

One of his best games yet.


Hope he keeps it up.

[alinfarah]

I really liked him playing with Aquilani - no nonsense quick play. Lucas reminds me of Deschamps - nothing spectacular but very efficient. Reira's distribution, and the idea of passing the ball out and then a quick break is very pleasing. Reira is the best keeper in the Premiership by a country mile.

[GarciasMuffin]

I thought he was mediocre at best so far this season but this was based purely on the fact that he was actually 'mediocre at best so far this season'.


However, there is no two ways about it, the lad is improving pretty rapidly.

Most noticeably in the last 2 games, where he seems to be getting forward and more importantly passing forwards much much more.

Mascherano has been missing for the last 2 games......coincidence ?

[bjornebye20]

But every time there's less and less as more people accept that he isn't really that bad. In fact hes quite good. Hard as nails and nails opposition players.

You never get a sick note from the lad. Can't remember the last time he was injured.

[AntonioLFC08]

I missed a lot of the first half in the pub due to snow fucking up the signal, but I've backed Lucas as much as Kuyt so hopefully he'll be as pivotal for us in the future too. :)

[red4life86]

Bjorn
"You never get a sick note from the lad. Can't remember the last time he was injured."

Oh
my
god.

What are you doing man?

[vin]

I really liked him playing with Aquilani - no nonsense quick play. Lucas reminds me of Deschamps - nothing spectacular but very efficient. Reira's distribution, and the idea of passing the ball out and then a quick break is very pleasing. Reira is the best keeper in the Premiership by a country mile.

You mean Reina. Don't want to know what would happen if Rafa played Riera in goal

[alinfarah]

You mean Reina. Don't want to know what would happen if Rafa played Riera in goal

Ha! Just shows what can happen when you mix red wine and flu mixtures!

[Strangetimes]

Even the forum Eyores don't seem too sure of themselves this eve. Tiddly pom :)

[bjornebye20]

Bjorn
"You never get a sick note from the lad. Can't remember the last time he was injured."

Oh
my
god.

What are you doing man?

I never learn...

[AntonioLFC08]

Even the forum Eyores don't seem too sure of themselves this eve. Tiddly pom :)

I miss eddie.

[robbieB]

Been a fan of Lucas since Rafa announced his aquisition. I think it was more the fact he had won the best payer award in Brazil that got me interested. But Rafa has moulded him into a gnarly CDM and I reckon it suits him. He's 22 years old and has strengthened himself this season and its showing. I really feel for the lad when the knockers criticise him because I think hes genuine and loves the club as much as we do.

I think he's better when Masch is out TBH, very mobile and plenty of grunt.

[SaudiScouser]

This is like the fourth or fifth game in a row that someone in here says that it was his best game. This means something. He is improving every game and he's making the holding position his own. More of the same Lucas lad.

[dean_lfc]

Decent game last night. Still not sure how much he brings to a game against a lesser team.

By star do you mean world class? Bearing in mind he's about the same age as Cesc Fabregas I think there's a long way to go before reaching those levels.

[shmol]

always liked the lad, hes definately improving every match. I think the biggest thing for him is he's finally got to grips with the physical nature of the league. He used to continually get pushed off the ball however hes far stronger these days

[nickJFT96]

Been a fan of Lucas since Rafa announced his aquisition. I think it was more the fact he had won the best payer award in Brazil that got me interested. But Rafa has moulded him into a gnarly CDM and I reckon it suits him. He's 22 years old and has strengthened himself this season and its showing. I really feel for the lad when the knockers criticise him because I think hes genuine and loves the club as much as we do.

I think he's better when Masch is out TBH, very mobile and plenty of grunt.

Cant underestimate his age in all this, can we? For me it does make Mascherano, for all his brilliance, a tiny bit less indespensible for us.

[AusLondon Red]

He was chuffed at the end when heard his name being sung, well in Lucas

[Vigilante]

Im guessing he plays alot better when hes the defenseive mid by himself not sat alongside mascherano, with two defensive midfielders that formation Rafa plays just doesnt work.

[konghøst]

I miss eddie.

No you don't ;)

[Rafalicious]

You could build a team around those little five yard passes you really could!

There was a point on 68 minutes where he did something that if he did it a bit more would make him a better player. He passed a ball and moved forward into space to receive it back, (he then got fouled when taking the ball forward) if he does that more often he could be a star. He hasn't been doing enough of that for me recently.

Got booked and then went straight in with an important tackle, committed but not rash. He is not shit.

Lucas was excellent last night and I was disappointed that he didn't get a mention from the commentators and pundits (but what do they know).

Great resolve after being booked and the move you mentioned was grinding to a halt but for his intent to try and find space.

Really good performance.

[Pinocchio 71]

I agree with another poster that if he is the ONLY holding/def midfielder he shows more promise,but let it be said his worth ethic and determination when he pulls on the red shirt is to be admired and other players should take a long hard look at what playing for our clubs means to him, heart on the sleeve kind of player and I like that, a good game from him performed well and u could see the delight on his face having his name sang by the travelling fans :)

[Pip2]

got to hand it to the lad he is getting better and better.
due to his role of cdm he will never get the plaudits he deserves unless he scores a few crackers
he is better intheir on his own and we were better with stevie in front of him for the last 15 mins

keep it going lucas

[Dids]

fucking hell, whats going on, 3 pages on Lucas and no one has said hes shite or not good enough for the reds.

It's not on, for 2 years now I've been starting Lucas threads, there normally an easy way to start an argument but not no more. Where have all the blerts gone?

[moe1971]

fucking hell, whats going on, 3 pages on Lucas and no one has said hes shite or not good enough for the reds.

It's not on, for 2 years now I've been starting Lucas threads, there normally an easy way to start an argument but not no more. Where have all the blerts gone?

like the 2 faced gobshites who spent half of last season booing him?

keeping quiet until our next bad result.

[mccoydromintee]

[/B]



keeping quiet until our next bad result.

What's the point in going to matches if we might lose?

[moe1971]

What's the point in going to matches if we might lose?

is that a rhetorical question?

[Treadmill]

Excellent game tonight - just goes to prove that some people should have a little more faith in Rafa from time to time...

As per the current Maschrano thread - I can see Lucas becoming our holding player and us making some dollar out of the Argie man. Lucas and Aqualani looked solid together I thought.

[mccoydromintee]

is that a rhetorical question?

It was a pop at the fans who I know who have said that there is no point going to matches this season because we are "shit".

[moe1971]

Excellent game tonight - just goes to prove that some people should have a little more faith in Rafa from time to time...

As per the current Maschrano thread - I can see Lucas becoming our holding player and us making some dollar out of the Argie man. Lucas and Aqualani looked solid together I thought.

a wise person once said Lucas isnt as good as some people make out and it not as bad as others have made out.

I think its a bit premature to think that lucas is good enough to replace mascaharno on a permanent basis just yet.

[moe1971]

It was a pop at the fans who I know who have said that there is no point going to matches this season because we are "shit".

Everyone has a maon at some point its the 2 faced cunts which get my goat.The like that praise carra to the sky but were giving him a dog's abuse 5 years ago.

[redsam]

I hope Lucas can keep this form up. He's improved a lot this season compared to last, but he needs to be more consistent.

It worked well with Aquilani yesterday. I really hope Rafa doesn't play Lucas-Mascherano in cm again unless he's forced to. 1 defensive midfielder is enough.

[Bridgeman]

a wise person once said Lucas isnt as good as some people make out and it not as bad as others have made out.

I think its a bit premature to think that lucas is good enough to replace mascaharno on a permanent basis just yet.

think you've got it spot on moe. maybe 2/3 years time just not yet

[North Wales Red]

Nope, still don't think in the long run he's the answer to our problems.

[dicko1969]

Lucas' pass accuracy over he season is 88%. (according to the stats)

Lucas since the MU game has been work in progress. He has improved with every game. Alone in the holding role he has looked superb. Doesnt give the ball away, now with all the experience and playing time in the premier league has got to grips with English football.

Well done; keep it going.

[RedNoodle]

In answer to those who think that people have suddenly changed their "Tune" because we have won a couple of games I would like to say the following.

I have still yet to see anything from Lucas that makes me think he will ever be good enough for a club such as ours. Granted he is making less mistakes than he was, but he still just passes the ball sideways/backwards (hence the misleading passing success stat) and offers absolutely nothing going forward.

People keep banging on about giving him time, his age and how he is improving but he is not young anymore, has been here for a reasonable amount of time and has gotten a fair few games. Every now and then there is a player that out of nowhere blossoms into a genuine talent but more often than not you can tell if a player has that bit of genuine class quite soon after they start playing. With Lucas I just don't see it and I think that others (Ngog,Pacheco etc) who have shown some promise/class in the v.brief time they have been given, must feel a bit peeved that someone such as Lucas has been given ample opportunity to prove himself (Which in my opinion he has not done) whilst they have taken the small chances they have been given and are left to rot on the bench on in the reserves.

I want EVERY player that plays for us to succeed, but I just don't think that Lucas is good enough for a club such as ours and I think his inclusion in the team (especially when played alongside Mascherano) often hinders, rather than aids us.

[scaton]

Does Lucas actually pass the ball sideways / backwards more than most central midfielders?

[RedNoodle]

Does Lucas actually pass the ball sideways / backwards more than most central midfielders?

In comparison to the amount of forward/telling passes that he provides, without knowing the exact numbers I would say a resounding yes.

[Tomarse27]

I have still yet to see anything from Lucas that makes me think he will ever be good enough for a club such as ours. Granted he is making less mistakes than he was, but he still just passes the ball sideways/backwards (hence the misleading passing success stat) and offers absolutely nothing going forward.
.

Was it not Lucacs' forward run in the Wolves game that lead to the eventual second yellow card?

the one that changed the game in our favour and left more room for us?

Just me then.

the lads improving, get behind him.

I thought being a Liverpool fan you always got behind the team through thick and thin. Too many immediate success demands.

[RedNoodle]

Was it not Lucacs' forward run in the Wolves game that lead to the eventual second yellow card?

the one that changed the game in our favour and left more room for us?

Just me then.

the lads improving, get behind him.

I thought being a Liverpool fan you always got behind the team through thick and thin. Too many immediate success demands.

I knew someone was eventually going to mention that. :rolleyes:

So we should play someone such as Lucas just in case he manages to get someone sent off? Maybe you would be happy doing such a thing, but I would rather have players that can do things to win a game with the football itself rather than relying on something else.

I get behind the the team regardless of who pulls on our shirt. However that does not mean that I think anyone who runs out for us is automatically of sufficient quality. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

I don't expect immediate success, but what I do expect is progress when faith is put in someone when others who are more deserving are not given such opportunity. As it stands I have seen little/no progress from Lucas other than as I alrady mentioned he makes fewer mistakes than he did.

[scaton]

Last season you described him as 'poor for a Championship player'. Apologies if that is not the exact quote.

You've honestly seen nothing from him that suggests he is now better than that?

[Madeiran Red]

I dont buy this "Only passes sideways/backwards" thing anymore. The way I see it is that Masch does it just as much as Lucas. This is not a dig at Masch, but I dont see what he gives us that Lucas doesnt. I wouldnt want to see Mach leave but as someone has already stated, the way Lucas has been progressing, loosing Masch wouldnt be as big a kick in the teeth as I once thought, especially if the price right.

[RedNoodle]

Last season you described him as 'poor for a Championship player'. Apologies if that is not the exact quote.

You've honestly seen nothing from him that suggests he is now better than that?

I don't think I described him as such (Be careful as one person a week or so ago accused me of saying something and then later had to retract the accusation) however I have never changed my opinion that he is good enough for a mid/lower table prem team, but not good enough for anyone with serious ambitions to win the League or CL.

However my main concern is whether he is good enough for US and I simply don't think he is, certainly not playing from the start. Like I said the only area he has improved in is that he makes fewer mistakes, which is hardly something to salivate over. His passing is still woefully limited, his shooting is shocking and he still makes the odd rash/clumsy tackle.

[RedNoodle]

I dont buy this "Only passes sideways/backwards" thing anymore. The way I see it is that Masch does it just as much as Lucas. This is not a dig at Masch, but I dont see what he gives us that Lucas doesnt. I wouldnt want to see Mach leave but as someone has already stated, the way Lucas has been progressing, loosing Masch wouldnt be as big a kick in the teeth as I once thought, especially if the price right.

Masch is a much better version of Lucas. Better engine, better passer (despite what some would have you believe) and has a better shot on him despite not having a pop that often.

Thats the point, we don't need a second rate Mascherano (other than perhaps for backup) as we have the genuine article. We need more guile, craft and pace in the team and that should partly be coming from the person who plays alongside Mascherano, which should NOT be Lucas.

[Herbie]

What did Claude Makellele offer going forward? How many goals did he score? Did anybody ever see him consistently pass the ball 40-50 yards or even 20-30 yards? At what age was Claude really doing this to the best of his abilities?

Tell me again how he was considered the best in the world in his postion without doing any of the above?

YNWA

p.s... IMO, Lucas has more in his locker than Claude.

[Aquaman]

Masch is a much better version of Lucas. Better engine, better passer (despite what some would have you believe) and has a better shot on him despite not having a pop that often.

Thats the point, we don't need a second rate Mascherano (other than perhaps for backup) as we have the genuine article. We need more guile, craft and pace in the team and that should partly be coming from the person who plays alongside Mascherano, which should NOT be Lucas.

Interesting - I would argue that there isn't a million miles between their respective standards of passing, nor sadly of shooting (they're both mediocre at this at the moment).

For me, the biggest thing that the last 2 games have shown (& let's hope that Rafa has seen it at long last) is that we don't need to play these 2 as holding midfielders in most games.

Of course if Lucas continues his progress & starts being more effective going forward then he would be able to play well with Masch in more games.

[Madeiran Red]

Masch is a much better version of Lucas. Better engine, better passer (despite what some would have you believe) and has a better shot on him despite not having a pop that often.

Thats the point, we don't need a second rate Mascherano (other than perhaps for backup) as we have the genuine article. We need more guile, craft and pace in the team and that should partly be coming from the person who plays alongside Mascherano, which should NOT be Lucas.

I absolutley agree with you about them not playing together. I think thats where the real frustration begins. Between them they dont really create much, but saying that, I dont care if they pass sideways, I do care tho if they are passing sideways to eachother.

Someone has posted a link to the slysports stats so far this season and in tackles and passes, Lucas is fractionally behind Mash in both. Not too shabby.

[Madeiran Red]

What did Claude Makellele offer going forward? How many goals did he score? Did anybody ever see him consistently pass the ball 40-50 yards or even 20-30 yards? At what age was Claude really doing this to the best of his abilities?

Tell me again how he was considered the best in the world in his postion without doing any of the above?

YNWA

p.s... IMO, Lucas has more in his locker than Claude.


I guess your only as effective as your midfield partner. Didnt Makelelele make his name when he had a certain Zidane playing next to him?

[glentoran]

Lucas is average. Given time he could develop into a solid premier league player, but would United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, or Man City put an offer in for him?
He tries his heart out, and never seems to get injured, but whether he maybe feels inhibited as the new boy in a team of "stars", lacks confidence, or just can't do it, I'm not sure, but he rarely plays a pass forward or breaks into a sprint, and contributes little else apart from putting in a few tackles.
I would love to be proved wrong, as he IS a trier and never gives up.

[MikeyRed]

Got to agree still. He played pretty well last night but has been terrible for two seasons before this. He's been a regular this season and despite two wins in two games it is still our worst season for a long long time. Okay Torres has had an injury is part of the problem of course (and the fact that Rafa's sold our other good strikers on a regular basis) but the fact that he's not laughable anymore isn't enough. I'm by no means afraid to say it after a good result - he hasn't shown us a great deal. He's not that good. A good team needs goals from midfield and he certainly provides none of that. We needed a win last night and the fact that Torres came up with the goods (again) doesn't change the way we should look at a player who has been consistently weak. The results suggest he's not really good enough to get us into the top four let alone win us a title.

[glentoran]

Got to agree still. He played pretty well last night but has been terrible for two seasons before this. He's been a regular this season and despite two wins in two games it is still our worst season for a long long time. Okay Torres has had an injury is part of the problem of course (and the fact that Rafa's sold our other good strikers on a regular basis) but the fact that he's not laughable anymore isn't enough. I'm by no means afraid to say it after a good result - he hasn't shown us a great deal. He's not that good. A good team needs goals from midfield and he certainly provides none of that. We needed a win last night and the fact that Torres came up with the goods (again) doesn't change the way we should look at a player who has been consistently weak. The results suggest he's not really good enough to get us into the top four let alone win us a title.

Yeah. I'd never question his heart, only his potential. I know that sounds harsh, but if the guy is not top class, when we're aiming at the top, he becomes a relatively weak link.

[Herbie]

I guess your only as effective as your midfield partner. Didnt Makelelele make his name when he had a certain Zidane playing next to him?

Your missing the point. Lucas is there to do certain job just like Claude was. IMO, Lucas does his job well and offers more....

There are those who can't see that just yet and there are those who are coming round to seeing it. There will also be those who come round to seeing it.

Lucas is still relatively young and still has a lot of developing to do. Things that only come with age experience. Just ask the gooners about Alex Song!

YNWA

[robbieB]

In answer to those who think that people have suddenly changed their "Tune" because we have won a couple of games I would like to say the following.

I have still yet to see anything from Lucas that makes me think he will ever be good enough for a club such as ours. Granted he is making less mistakes than he was, but he still just passes the ball sideways/backwards (hence the misleading passing success stat) and offers absolutely nothing going forward.

People keep banging on about giving him time, his age and how he is improving but he is not young anymore, has been here for a reasonable amount of time and has gotten a fair few games. Every now and then there is a player that out of nowhere blossoms into a genuine talent but more often than not you can tell if a player has that bit of genuine class quite soon after they start playing. With Lucas I just don't see it and I think that others (Ngog,Pacheco etc) who have shown some promise/class in the v.brief time they have been given, must feel a bit peeved that someone such as Lucas has been given ample opportunity to prove himself (Which in my opinion he has not done) whilst they have taken the small chances they have been given and are left to rot on the bench on in the reserves.

I want EVERY player that plays for us to succeed, but I just don't think that Lucas is good enough for a club such as ours and I think his inclusion in the team (especially when played alongside Mascherano) often hinders, rather than aids us.

This sounds a bit strange to me, considering our financial power and lack of second team resources. I would place Lucas in the top 10 CDM's in the league and have a feeling he will be a stand out in the future. He's not in the mould of a Viera or a Keane but he will be palying for us for a long time, maybe if he slotted a few goals you might warm to him a litlle, so why not get behind him and show him what a club like ours can do for him?

[Jenson78]

Lucas Pezzini Leiva is so far player of the season for me :p

[scaton]

I don't think I described him as such (Be careful as one person a week or so ago accused me of saying something and then later had to retract the accusation) however I have never changed my opinion that he is good enough for a mid/lower table prem team, but not good enough for anyone with serious ambitions to win the League or CL.

However my main concern is whether he is good enough for US and I simply don't think he is, certainly not playing from the start. Like I said the only area he has improved in is that he makes fewer mistakes, which is hardly something to salivate over. His passing is still woefully limited, his shooting is shocking and he still makes the odd rash/clumsy tackle.

Sorry my quote was wrong:

"If he was playing for a lower league club today I still would have said he had a shocker and I think the vast majority of footy fans (LFC or otherwise) would agree. He has been woeful in virtually every game he has played for us not just this one."

This was after the Man City game in Feb. And my reading of your post suggests it wasn't just that game that gave you that view.

So in 10 months he's gone from shocking for a lower league club, to good enough for mid / lower Premier League.

If all you look for is progress, he should be your favourite player. ;)

[Finlay's Dad]

In answer to those who think that people have suddenly changed their "Tune" because we have won a couple of games I would like to say the following.

I have still yet to see anything from Lucas that makes me think he will ever be good enough for a club such as ours. Granted he is making less mistakes than he was, but he still just passes the ball sideways/backwards (hence the misleading passing success stat) and offers absolutely nothing going forward.
People keep banging on about giving him time, his age and how he is improving but he is not young anymore, has been here for a reasonable amount of time and has gotten a fair few games. Every now and then there is a player that out of nowhere blossoms into a genuine talent but more often than not you can tell if a player has that bit of genuine class quite soon after they start playing. With Lucas I just don't see it and I think that others (Ngog,Pacheco etc) who have shown some promise/class in the v.brief time they have been given, must feel a bit peeved that someone such as Lucas has been given ample opportunity to prove himself (Which in my opinion he has not done) whilst they have taken the small chances they have been given and are left to rot on the bench on in the reserves.

I want EVERY player that plays for us to succeed, but I just don't think that Lucas is good enough for a club such as ours and I think his inclusion in the team (especially when played alongside Mascherano) often hinders, rather than aids us.

You can repeat this line as much as you want and don't we just know it. The only problem is alot of us watch the games so know it's utter cack!

[RedNoodle]

Sorry my quote was wrong:

"If he was playing for a lower league club today I still would have said he had a shocker and I think the vast majority of footy fans (LFC or otherwise) would agree. He has been woeful in virtually every game he has played for us not just this one."

This was after the Man City game in Feb. And my reading of your post suggests it wasn't just that game that gave you that view.

So in 10 months he's gone from shocking for a lower league club, to good enough for mid / lower Premier League.

If all you look for is progress, he should be your favourite player. ;)

Well firstly its quite sad that you (amongst others) feel the need to trawl through past posts to try and gain some kind of "brownie points". However even if I did say that (please send me the details of which thread/when etc) I still stand by what I said. If that quote is correct the fact that I said "If he was playing for a lower league club today I still would have said he had a shocker" should point out to you that I was refering to his performance in that game, which was that of someone I would expect to see in the lower leagues, not one of the biggest clubs in world football.

In 10 months he has gone from an "Average at best" player who makes lots of mistakes to an "Average at best" player who makes slightly fewer mistakes. Some such as yourself may see that as "Progress" I and many others however do not and my opinion has not changed just because we have won a couple of games back to back.

[RedNoodle]

You can repeat this line as much as you want and don't we just know it. The only problem is alot of us watch the games so know it's utter cack!

Yes but unlike many others I watch the games with my eyes open and my LFC rose tinted glasses off. Again you come on here and rather than debating the issue as to why you think Lucas is good enough for us you resort to your usual "The only problem is alot of us watch the games so know it's utter cack!" kind of stuff.

Of course I am going to repeat this line. Its what I and MANY others see with our own eyes and just because there are people like yourself who are happy for us to make do with mediocrity, there are plenty of us that are not.

Also for the record I have seen EVERY game we have played for at least the last 4 or so seasons, so don't try and make out that people such as me don't know what we are talking about as our opinion is as valid as anyone elses, just because you rate Lucas does not mean you are neccessarily correct in that assessment.

I don't rate Lucas but am willing to hold my hands up should he come good. However some of those that Rate Lucas will NEVER criticise him no matter how dire his performance and to me they are no better than the "In Rafa we trust no matter what" brigade.

[Finlay's Dad]

Yes but unlike many others I watch the games with my eyes open and my LFC rose tinted glasses off. Again you come on here and rather than debating the issue as to why you think Lucas is good enough for us you resort to your usual "The only problem is alot of us watch the games so know it's utter cack!" kind of stuff.

Of course I am going to repeat this line. Its what I and MANY others see with our own eyes and just because there are people like yourself who are happy for us to make do with mediocrity, there are plenty of us that are not.

Also for the record I have seen EVERY game we have played for at least the last 4 or so seasons, so don't try and make out that people such as me don't know what we are talking about as our opinion is as valid as anyone elses, just because you rate Lucas does not mean you are neccessarily correct in that assessment.

I don't rate Lucas but am willing to hold my hands up should he come good. However some of those that Rate Lucas will NEVER criticise him no matter how dire his performance and to me they are no better than the "In Rafa we trust no matter what" brigade.

You're not worth it Noodles.

[user name]

noodle... there's a clue just below scatons username...

sad? brownie points? no... the kid has used his powers of logic... simple... what u shoulda done really was to hold yer hands up and say...

''tiene razon''

... because he does indeed have 'reasoning' he's not some dickhead that just pretends to know stuff... he just knows it... it's not majic... it's logical discourse... and he's good at it... pretty, pretty good...

like he needs my back up...:rolleyes:

now he has every right to call u a tit and abuse u for your foolish behaviour and lack of respect for his stronger argument... but, guess what? he won't do that... he'll just do what he's always done and thats... illuminate u with the factolas... in an egoless way...

let yer ego go and realise he's doing u a massive favour... :)

[RedNoodle]

You're not worth it Noodles.

You mean you can't offer a reasoned argument without resorting to put downs/abuse/swearing.

You rate Lucas I don't. End of.

[dicko1969]

Noodles and uselessname, surely Lucas has come good .. erm.. what do ya say.. End of.

[RedNoodle]

noodle... there's a clue just below scatons username...

sad? brownie points? no... the kid has used his powers of logic... simple... what u shoulda done really was to hold yer hands up and say...

''tiene razon''

... because he does indeed have 'reasoning' he's not some dickhead that just pretends to know stuff... he just knows it... it's not majic... it's logical discourse... and he's good at it... pretty, pretty good...

like he needs my back up...:rolleyes:

now he has every right to call u a tit and abuse u for your foolish behaviour and lack of respect for his stronger argument... but, guess what? he won't do that... he'll just do what he's always done and thats... illuminate u with the factolas... in an egoless way...

let yer ego go and realise he's doing u a massive favour... :)

No there is a long history between me and Mr Scaton. He like a few others cannot deal with others having a different opinion to his own and thus will go to any length, dig up any meaningless stat/old quote to try and prove a point, no matter how much evidence there is to contradict/disprove anything they say.

Its a bit like religious conflict. Other religions sometimes feel the need to wipe out all others because otherwise it puts a question mark over their own beliefs.

Foolish behaviour and stronger argument? Yeah if you say so mate. If I was you, I would lay off the ale and get yourself booked into rehab in the new year.

So much for reasoned debate.

Cest la vie.

[Finlay's Dad]

You mean you can't offer a reasoned argument without resorting to put downs/abuse/swearing.

You rate Lucas I don't. End of.

No, I mean I can't be bothered explaining to you the roles and responsibilities of different types of players in a football team. You've watched every game we've played for the last 4 seasons. Whoop de doo! :rolleyes:

[user name]

Noodles and uselessname, surely Lucas has come good .. erm.. what do ya say.. End of.

i have rattled yer cage dicko... whats up? we don't have 'previous'... are u just on one or being a bit of a dicko for a reason?...

[scaton]

Well firstly its quite sad that you (amongst others) feel the need to trawl through past posts to try and gain some kind of "brownie points". However even if I did say that (please send me the details of which thread/when etc) I still stand by what I said. If that quote is correct the fact that I said "If he was playing for a lower league club today I still would have said he had a shocker" should point out to you that I was refering to his performance in that game, which was that of someone I would expect to see in the lower leagues, not one of the biggest clubs in world football.

In 10 months he has gone from an "Average at best" player who makes lots of mistakes to an "Average at best" player who makes slightly fewer mistakes. Some such as yourself may see that as "Progress" I and many others however do not and my opinion has not changed just because we have won a couple of games back to back.

Are you accusing me of making up posts? That is defamation. :D

You're quote explicitly states "not just this one", which to me implies that you feel the level of performance in that particular game 'shocking for a lower league player' (single quotes as not word for word before you get excited), was a regular level of performance for Lucas at this time.

That is a million miles from where you describe him today.

He's gone from a poor Exeter player to a decent West Ham player in ten months, and its not enough progress?

And the insults are a waste of typing. You could be looking up posts in that time.

[RedNoodle]

No, I mean I can't be bothered explaining to you the roles and responsibilities of different types of players in a football team. You've watched every game we've played for the last 4 seasons. Whoop de doo! :rolleyes:

Whoop de do you say? I only mentioned it because you said "You can repeat this line as much as you want and don't we just know it. The only problem is alot of us watch the games so know it's utter cack!".

Should I have said "Whoop de doo!" because you "Watch the games"? No I shouldn't and did not, because I don't feel the need to try and make myself out as the font of all knowledge or some kind of superfan. I was just pointing out that contrary to your post I have seen enough of us/Lucas play to come up with a reasoned assessment of him as a player.

I would never make myself out to be the best supporter, or the font of all LFC knowledge, its just a shame that others think that they are. :rolleyes:

[user name]

No there is a long history between me and Mr Scaton. He like a few others cannot deal with others having a different opinion to his own and thus will go to any length, dig up any meaningless stat/old quote to try and prove a point, no matter how much evidence there is to contradict/disprove anything they say.

Its a bit like religious conflict. Other religions sometimes feel the need to wipe out all others because otherwise it puts a question mark over their own beliefs.

Foolish behaviour and stronger argument? Yeah if you say so mate. If I was you, I would lay off the ale and get yourself booked into rehab in the new year.

So much for reasoned debate.

Cest la vie.

hmmm... like i noted...

but yer wrong... if u were me u wouldn't act like some tit trying it on with scatons logica... a long way u have to go kid... a long way... :)

[RedNoodle]

Are you accusing me of making up posts? That is defamation. :D

You're quote explicitly states "not just this one", which to me implies that you feel the level of performance in that particular game 'shocking for a lower league player' (single quotes as not word for word before you get excited), was a regular level of performance for Lucas at this time.

That is a million miles from where you describe him today.

He's gone from a poor Exeter player to a decent West Ham player in ten months, and its not enough progress?

And the insults are a waste of typing. You could be looking up posts in that time.

You came up with the post. I never accused you of anything other than being someone who needs to get out more rather than trawling through past posts in order to try and win a game of one upmanship.

I don't really care how/what you want to read into my posts. I have said it clearly numerous times what I think of Lucas and you trying to make out I am changing my tune (Which I clearly am not) is doing nothing apart from making you look like you are a wum who has nothing better to do than trying to aggravate me.

Yes the insults are a waste of time. I keep hoping that one day I might actually come on here and have some reasoned/sensible/adult discussion, however there is more chance of finding a honest politician than encountering others on here who also find insults/abuse/wummery/one upmanship a waste of time.

[dicko1969]

hmmm... like i noted...

but yer wrong... if u were me u wouldn't act like some tit trying it on with scatons logica... a long way u have to go kid... a long way... :)

Good evening losername, you seem a very jovial fella. I mean so funny that we can't wait for your next post.

Just waiting for your wisdom. Eloquent, about as artistic as Mr Bean, colourful as a Harold Lloyd film, and as exciting as John Major.

Now , why don't you give us a post that actually contributes to this forum on footballing debate instead of the drivel that comes from your rancid keyboard that your weasel fingers type.

[RedNoodle]

hmmm... like i noted...

but yer wrong... if u were me u wouldn't act like some tit trying it on with scatons logica... a long way u have to go kid... a long way... :)

If you say so. However the fact that you call me a "kid" as well saying I am acting like a "Tit" for daring to have an opinion contrary to those that believe Lucas is suddenly world class, says more about you than it does me.

Obviously you belong to that ever increasing list of people on here that can't deal with opinions that differ from your own and thus you feel the need to defend this through whatever means neccessary.

Sad but indicitive of this place and society in general these days. :*(

[scaton]

It is interesting that one side of this argument is one-upmanship, and the other isn't?

Despite us both being fond of the last word.

I don't read anything into your posts. The words are there. If they don't convey you're meaning as you intend it, they're not doing a good job.

[scaton]

No there is a long history between me and Mr Scaton. He like a few others cannot deal with others having a different opinion to his own and thus will go to any length, dig up any meaningless stat/old quote to try and prove a point, no matter how much evidence there is to contradict/disprove anything they say.


All I'm trying to show you on this thread is that Lucas has progressed, which is what you look for in a player.

I did this by showing your descriptions of his play, not mine.

I think he was underrated last season, and better this season, but nowhere close to world class.

[user name]

Good evening losername, you seem a very jovial fella. I mean so funny that we can't wait for your next post.

Just waiting for your wisdom. Eloquent, about as artistic as Mr Bean, colourful as a Harold Lloyd film, and as exciting as John Major.

Now , why don't you give us a post that actually contributes to this forum on footballing debate instead of the drivel that comes from your rancid keyboard that your weasel fingers type.

like i said... no previous, deffo on one... i've no need to defend meself here and now...

[RedNoodle]

It is interesting that one side of this argument is one-upmanship, and the other isn't?

Despite us both being fond of the last word.

I don't read anything into your posts. The words are there. If they don't convey you're meaning as you intend it, they're not doing a good job.

I am NOT interested in one upmanship, just DEBATE. Two people have opposing views, one person believes their opinion is right and the other theirs. All I want is a two way discussion as to why each person thinks they are correct. Not a one way discussion with one person willing to entertain the fact they could be wrong and the other person resolutely sticking to their guns no matter what evidence there is to the contrary and going to such extreme lengths to try and prove a point that it comes across as a bit sad and pathetic.

As for the quote like I have said before, you can take a quote about a specific thing and depending on the circumstances you can make it fit your own argument. The fact remains however that the basic jist of it i.e Lucas is not good enough, still remains. He was an average player who made lots of mistakes which I would expect of those in the lower leagues and now he is an average player who makes less mistakes.

That hardly changes the crux of my argument does it?

[user name]

If you say so. However the fact that you call me a "kid" as well saying I am acting like a "Tit" for daring to have an opinion contrary to those that believe Lucas is suddenly world class, says more about you than it does me.

Obviously you belong to that ever increasing list of people on here that can't deal with opinions that differ from your own and thus you feel the need to defend this through whatever means neccessary.

Sad but indicitive of this place and society in general these days. :*(

i'm from north manc... i even call me mate who's 11 years older than me ''kid''... don't take offense where non was intended...

if u really look at your 'debate' with scaton without any ego, u would be embarrassed by some of yer argument... do a poll... go to the people, they will not back u up...

obviously, both of u wanna 'win' this argument... maybe i coulda/shoulda just left u to it and let natural law take it's course...

on the footballing note... i'm a massive lucas fan... not to do with his upward curve, which many people are beginning to recognise... but his character... he's shown tons of it since he got booed off the field...

and that will do for me...

[dicko1969]

i'm from north manc... i even call me mate who's 11 years older than me ''kid''... don't take offense where non was intended...

if u really look at your 'debate' with scaton without any ego, u would be embarrassed by some of yer argument... do a poll... go to the people, they will not back u up...

obviously, both of u wanna 'win' this argument... maybe i coulda/shoulda just left u to it and let natural law take it's course...

on the footballing note... i'm a massive lucas fan... not to do with his upward curve, which many people are beginning to recognise... but his character... he's shown tons of it since he got booed off the field...

and that will do for me...

There you go, you do have a footballing opinion. Well done. Lucas has shown character, now you. Even if you have a uselessname.

[RedNoodle]

i'm from north manc... i even call me mate who's 11 years older than me ''kid''... don't take offense where non was intended...

if u really look at your 'debate' with scaton without any ego, u would be embarrassed by some of yer argument... do a poll... go to the people, they will not back u up...

obviously, both of u wanna 'win' this argument... maybe i coulda/shoulda just left u to it and let natural law take it's course...

on the footballing note... i'm a massive lucas fan... not to do with his upward curve, which many people are beginning to recognise... but his character... he's shown tons of it since he got booed off the field...

and that will do for me...

Its not about winning the argument. Personally I would like Lucas to suddenly turn into WPOTY material, I just don't see it happening. I just want a reasoned discussion/debate rather than having to put up with people being abusive or whatever for daring to have a different opinion to them.

I am not embarrassed by any of my argument. I stand by what I say and I would be more embarrassed if I was Scaton and felt the need to trawl through endless threads/posts to try and prove a point. I almost expected a "ner ner ne ner ner" (in a kids voice) at the end of my quote.

No doubting Lucas has some character, its his skill I am concerned about.

[user name]

There you go, you do have a footballing opinion. Well done. Lucas has shown character, now you. Even if you have a uselessname.

u have certainly shown a lot of character tonight kid... well done...

[user name]

Its not about winning the argument. Personally I would like Lucas to suddenly turn into WPOTY material, I just don't see it happening. I just want a reasoned discussion/debate rather than having to put up with people being abusive or whatever for daring to have a different opinion to them.

I am not embarrassed by any of my argument. I stand by what I say and I would be more embarrassed if I was Scaton and felt the need to trawl through endless threads/posts to try and prove a point. I almost expected a "ner ner ne ner ner" (in a kids voice) at the end of my quote.

No doubting Lucas has some character, its his skill I am concerned about.

u needn't be... he will grow in confidence and show why he was coveted by so many clubs...

[scaton]

I am not embarrassed by any of my argument. I stand by what I say and I would be more embarrassed if I was Scaton and felt the need to trawl through endless threads/posts to try and prove a point. I almost expected a "ner ner ne ner ner" (in a kids voice) at the end of my quote.

No doubting Lucas has some character, its his skill I am concerned about.

There's no trawling.

I have all your posts saved.

[RedNoodle]

u needn't be... he will grow in confidence and show why he was coveted by so many clubs...

Well Rafa keeps playing him so it seems time will tell. I just hope that I am not proved correct in my assessment of him.

[RedNoodle]

There's no trawling.

I have all your posts saved.

I suspect thats a joke, but I would not be surprised if it were true.

[red4life86]

You mean you can't offer a reasoned argument without resorting to put downs/abuse/swearing.

You rate Lucas I don't. End of.

I know you didn't rate Lucas previously, are you saying you still don't? (If you've already made this clear, sorry to ask you to repeat it, don't be an arse I haven't read the whole thread and genuinely interested in your opinion on this).

[scaton]

I suspect thats a joke, but I would not be surprised if it were true.

It is a joke.

Its only the ridiculous ones that I keep.

[RedNoodle]

I know you didn't rate Lucas previously, are you saying you still don't? (If you've already made this clear, sorry to ask you to repeat it, don't be an arse I haven't read the whole thread and genuinely interested in your opinion on this).

No I still don't. For me the only area he has "improved" in is that he makes less mistakes than he previously did. For me he is still lacking in some key areas and in my opinion playing him often hinders rather than helps us.

No doubting his heart and possibly his work ethic but we have Mascherano (A better version of Lucas) for that and thus apart from backup he is not what we need or should be looking for.

[RedNoodle]

It is a joke.

Its only the ridiculous ones that I keep.

Ah so you don't have any of mine then. ;)

[Herbie]

Well Rafa keeps playing him so it seems time will tell. I just hope that I am not proved correct in my assessment of him.

Well Rafa AND Dunga trust Lucas to the job they ask of him week in week out (most internationals in Dunga's case) so what makes you think your opinion is worth more than theirs? You sound like that prick Jamie Kanwar. If you think you know better than a 2 world class managers, why are you not managing at the highest level of football istead of huffing and puffing on some internet form?

Everybody who can see can watch the game but it's the game intelligence that people like Scaton have that diffrenciates them from the likes of you....

YNWA

[user name]

Well Rafa keeps playing him so it seems time will tell. I just hope that I am not proved correct in my assessment of him.

hopefully, no fear... :)

[RedNoodle]

Well Rafa AND Dunga trust Lucas to the job they ask of him week in week out (most internationals in Dunga's case) so what makes you think your opinion is worth more than theirs? You sound like that prick Jamie Kanwar. If you think you know better than a 2 world class managers, why are you not managing at the highest level of football istead of huffing and puffing on some internet form?

Everybody who can see can watch the game but it's the game intelligence that people like Scaton have that diffrenciates them from the likes of you....

YNWA

My opinion is as valid as theirs. Just because they happen to be the manager does not always mean they know best (McClaren putting Andy Johnson on the wing, Fergie buying Veron etc). Just because someone has a different opinion on something to you, a manager or whoever does not make them a "Prick". Your reaction to their differing opinion however just shows you to be yet another person who feels the need to swear/abuse those they don't agree with.

Don't talk to me about "Game intelligence". I can see, I have eyes. I can see when a player can't pass a ball forward more than 5 yards or can't hit a cows backside with a banjo. I don't need to have all the football licences/badges and a managerial CV filled with CL winning teams to be able to tell when a player is/is not currently good enough for our club.

However like I keep saying, I am open to things changing. Its just a shame that others obviously can't handle others having a different opinion to their own and decend into the type of tirades I would expect from schoolkids.

[Torrminator]

You came up with the post. I never accused you of anything other than being someone who needs to get out more rather than trawling through past posts in order to try and win a game of one upmanship.

I don't really care how/what you want to read into my posts. I have said it clearly numerous times what I think of Lucas and you trying to make out I am changing my tune (Which I clearly am not) is doing nothing apart from making you look like you are a wum who has nothing better to do than trying to aggravate me.

Yes the insults are a waste of time. I keep hoping that one day I might actually come on here and have some reasoned/sensible/adult discussion, however there is more chance of finding a honest politician than encountering others on here who also find insults/abuse/wummery/one upmanship a waste of time.

If you say so. However the fact that you call me a "kid" as well saying I am acting like a "Tit" for daring to have an opinion contrary to those that believe Lucas is suddenly world class, says more about you than it does me.

Obviously you belong to that ever increasing list of people on here that can't deal with opinions that differ from your own and thus you feel the need to defend this through whatever means neccessary.

Sad but indicitive of this place and society in general these days. :*(

Its not about winning the argument. Personally I would like Lucas to suddenly turn into WPOTY material, I just don't see it happening. I just want a reasoned discussion/debate rather than having to put up with people being abusive or whatever for daring to have a different opinion to them.

I am not embarrassed by any of my argument. I stand by what I say and I would be more embarrassed if I was Scaton and felt the need to trawl through endless threads/posts to try and prove a point. I almost expected a "ner ner ne ner ner" (in a kids voice) at the end of my quote.

No doubting Lucas has some character, its his skill I am concerned about.

Ah so you don't have any of mine then. ;)

Sinking like a stone mate.

I honestly and sincerely take my hat off to you, It took the forum`s No. 1 poster to unravel your argument.

Nice to see you fall all the same :p

[Torrminator]

My opinion is as valid as theirs. Just because they happen to be the manager does not always mean they know best

Quit whilst you`re ahead, for FS!!!

[RedNoodle]

Sinking like a stone mate.

I honestly and sincerely take my hat off to you, It took the forum`s No. 1 poster to unravel your argument.

Nice to see you fall all the same :p

How has my argument been unraveled?

[Tomarse27]

I knew someone was eventually going to mention that. :rolleyes:

So we should play someone such as Lucas just in case he manages to get someone sent off? Maybe you would be happy doing such a thing, but I would rather have players that can do things to win a game with the football itself rather than relying on something else.

I get behind the the team regardless of who pulls on our shirt. However that does not mean that I think anyone who runs out for us is automatically of sufficient quality. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

I don't expect immediate success, but what I do expect is progress when faith is put in someone when others who are more deserving are not given such opportunity. As it stands I have seen little/no progress from Lucas other than as I alrady mentioned he makes fewer mistakes than he did.

Obviously i only watch football to hope that we get other players sent off, not score more goals than the other team and win? My point was he was making a forward run? You know an attempt to get into the box maybe have a shot? A bit of forward play? you were saying he only ever passes to the side and backwards....

Fair point, Voronin is the obvious example.

We have progressed! Who is more deserving? Pacheco? Fair point, I would love to see him starting games, when he has come on he looks exciting and seems to link up well with Torres (as does Dossena?!) Rafa obviously thinks he is too young to risk from the start and has started to give him a few minutes at the end of games - to slowly prepare him.

[Torrminator]

How has my argument been unraveled?

When Scaton resorts to gentle mocking, he`s got you owned. Owned mate. Just you don`t seem to have the grace or humility to concede as much. Do you remember Arabus?..........

[scaton]

My opinion is as valid as theirs.

I can't agree with that.

Certain people's opinions are more valid than others on all topics. Usually those forming their opinions with more of the relevant information.

And on this topic, Rafa has access to much more than any of us.

It doesn't mean he's always right, but it certainly adds to their validity.

[robbieB]

I cant believe to gain cred you would quote that you have been watching football for 4 seasons:confused:


Anyhow Lucas is a decent player and good enough for Brazil and LFC.

[shmol]

Well Rafa AND Dunga trust Lucas to the job they ask of him week in week out (most internationals in Dunga's case) so what makes you think your opinion is worth more than theirs? You sound like that prick Jamie Kanwar. If you think you know better than a 2 world class managers, why are you not managing at the highest level of football istead of huffing and puffing on some internet form?

Everybody who can see can watch the game but it's the game intelligence that people like Scaton have that diffrenciates them from the likes of you....

YNWA
Dont agree with the points about if rafa and dunga say so then noodle cant argue, thats ridiculous. Rarely agree with red noodles posts but although hes wrong about lucus he wants to debate his strengths and weaknesses, thats what the forums for.

what i love most about lucus is his heart he can also spot a pass and plays with a lot of energy, the lads tackling was a weakness but is definately improving. think hes gonna be a big player for us in the future, the biggest improvement has been his strength, he used to get pushed off the ball far too easily but without doubt has dramatically improved

[tobermory]

Dont agree with the points about if rafa and dunga say so then noodle cant argue, thats ridiculous. Rarely agree with red noodles posts but although hes wrong about lucus he wants to debate his strengths and weaknesses, thats what the forums for.

what i love most about lucus is his heart he can also spot a pass and plays with a lot of energy, the lads tackling was a weakness but is definately improving. think hes gonna be a big player for us in the future, the biggest improvement has been his strength, he used to get pushed off the ball far too easily but without doubt has dramatically improved

I agree that simply because a manager picks a player does not mean that any counter argument is invalid. Equally, however, Scaton's comment that the manager will tend to have more information available is also true.

What I find difficult to accept is that we have fans (not pointing fingers) who will say that the team is doing badly because of one particular individual but if the team wins, it is not due to a team effort, it is because of a moment of brilliance from another individual. Last time I checked, football was a game of 11 v 11 (generally speaking) and games are won and lost as a team.

I don't think Lucas is anywhere near as bad as his detractors suggest but whilst those who favour him more than not are accused of having blind faith. The evidence, so far as I can see from what I have watched, is that Lucas is improving. The argument that no top side would buy him is a poor one. I don't believe Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal would buy Darren Fletcher but he was a huge loss to United in the Champions' League final last season. It isn't always about superstars, it's about a mix of special players and water carriers. So Lucas is the latter - it doesn't prevent him from being an important player for Liverpool.

[Dids]

How has my argument been unraveled?

Your main points seem to be that he only ever passes sidewards or backwards and that he doesn't sprint everywhere.

The first bit is total bollocks. You say you watch the game with your eyes open and with out red tinted specs on. May i suggest then you move your armchair nearer the telly. Because you haven't really got a clue whats going on, on the pitch.

At every opportunity and i do mean every one, well nearly every one, Lucas passes forward. So your main gripe against the lad is as I've already said bollocks. It's fantasy, It's just not true. In nearly every game this season I've counted the passes he makes and noted in which direction they go in.
I know your talking bollocks.

The five yard pass thing is bollocks as well.


You say he makes to many clumsy tackles, again move your chair closer or maybe you just don't know the differance between a deliberate foul, made to break up / stop a move or player and a clumsy foul.

Lucas makes cynical fouls not clumsy tackles, just like Paul Scholes always has done.

I like the fact, he doesn't mind giving it out a bit, (he can certainly take it), it's about time we had cmf with a bit of bite.

Is it just a coincidence that the lad Lucas stamped on in the wigan game was the one who got sent off. Maybe it is but there are players out their who lose the plot when you kick them, Torres being one, Alonso another. You can make them both disappear for 20 minutes if you kick em. If i was a manager, i tell the lads to kick em, even gang up on them and take it in turns. It's an unacceptable tactic for most but it's about winning.
In Lucas we've got someone who can carry it out and not someone like Alonso who had it done to them.. .

Another myth is that is passing is shite and he gives the ball away to easily. Again fantasy.
Someone on the villa match thread slags him of for giving the ball away 9 out of 10 times he has it. Again not true, 3 times in the whole game he losses possession and 1 of them was a 50/50.

I've read that he hasn't got a good engine, this again is a myth, the lad, when allowed is box to box for the full ninety. He goes on countless breakaways, esp in the last 20 minutes of the game.

I should imagine he's getting told by Rafa to keep it simple, don't do anything flash, just get it and give it. Let the superstars do the flashy stuff.

He reminds me of a bit in that way of cally when he played center mid field, the player who binds the team together and lets others play their own game.
Nothing flash, nothing fancy..

When Masch got his 4 game ban i said on another thread it would be a good thing, I see more in Lucas as a team builder/binder, than i ever have done in Masch and with GJ now out for however long, it would be Masch i consider moving to rightback, if none of the lads are fully ready to step up..

[Dids]

I agree that simply because a manager picks a player does not mean that any counter argument is invalid. Equally, however, Scaton's comment that the manager will tend to have more information available is also true.

What I find difficult to accept is that we have fans (not pointing fingers) who will say that the team is doing badly because of one particular individual but if the team wins, it is not due to a team effort, it is because of a moment of brilliance from another individual. Last time I checked, football was a game of 11 v 11 (generally speaking) and games are won and lost as a team.

I don't think Lucas is anywhere near as bad as his detractors suggest but whilst those who favour him more than not are accused of having blind faith. The evidence, so far as I can see from what I have watched, is that Lucas is improving. The argument that no top side would buy him is a poor one. I don't believe Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal would buy Darren Fletcher but he was a huge loss to United in the Champions' League final last season. It isn't always about superstars, it's about a mix of special players and water carriers. So Lucas is the latter - it doesn't prevent him from being an important player for Liverpool.




Spot on

[mccoydromintee]

I think he has been one of our better players this year, I really do. He has been consitently good without ever being spectacular. Again, he is a confidence player and, at the moment, the fans are giving him plenty of support and he is responding.

I honestly don't know how anyone could say he has been shit this year, he hasn't. He does the dirty work and has been doing it pretty well. The last few games he is also bomobing forward a lot more. Yossi's goal against Wolves, it was him that the defender flicked the ball away from on the six-yard line. He was in similar positions on plenty of occasions, although the City header just shows how much he has to improve on that aspect. We have seen him cut in from the byline a few times, a lot more than Alonso would have done.

The five yard pass judgement is also bollocks. When we remember past great players we automatically remember the good. Alonso had plenty of average games. But he was also intilligent enough to know that a five yard pass is sometimes the better option that a 50 yard effort.

He is only 22, he has shown significant improvement. He still needs to improve greatly but, remeber, the plan, you would think, would be to have Mascherano and Aquailani as the preferred CM partnership. Injuries and suspension has not allowed this yet. If is does come to pass, then i'd rate Lucas as very good backup when needed.

Some players are just always going to get a raw deal. After the Villa match he took the blame because of his header. Not a peep was said about Gerrard and the penalty by some posters. Som others have put our bad form solely on Lucas, which excuses the frailties in defence seemingly.

He has had a tough time so far. He has shown the attitude snce to suggest he can make. I hope he does. Well in lad.

[red4life86]

I feel he's improving leaps and bounds. I also feel that when some posters, mentioning no names, suggest they "hope they are proved wrong about him" that's it's all a load of poppycock. If that was the case they would have already seen the improvement and be praising him for it. Not mention it in a throw away line whilst still slagging him off.

[Finlay's Dad]

Your main points seem to be that he only ever passes sidewards or backwards and that he doesn't sprint everywhere.

The first bit is total bollocks. You say you watch the game with your eyes open and with out red tinted specs on. May i suggest then you move your armchair nearer the telly. Because you haven't really got a clue whats going on, on the pitch.

At every opportunity and i do mean every one, well nearly every one, Lucas passes forward. So your main gripe against the lad is as I've already said bollocks. It's fantasy, It's just not true. In nearly every game this season I've counted the passes he makes and noted in which direction they go in.
I know your talking bollocks.

The five yard pass thing is bollocks as well.


You say he makes to many clumsy tackles, again move your chair closer or maybe you just don't know the differance between a deliberate foul, made to break up / stop a move or player and a clumsy foul.

Lucas makes cynical fouls not clumsy tackles, just like Paul Scholes always has done.

I like the fact, he doesn't mind giving it out a bit, (he can certainly take it), it's about time we had cmf with a bit of bite.

Is it just a coincidence that the lad Lucas stamped on in the wigan game was the one who got sent off. Maybe it is but there are players out their who lose the plot when you kick them, Torres being one, Alonso another. You can make them both disappear for 20 minutes if you kick em. If i was a manager, i tell the lads to kick em, even gang up on them and take it in turns. It's an unacceptable tactic for most but it's about winning.
In Lucas we've got someone who can carry it out and not someone like Alonso who had it done to them.. .

Another myth is that is passing is shite and he gives the ball away to easily. Again fantasy.
Someone on the villa match thread slags him of for giving the ball away 9 out of 10 times he has it. Again not true, 3 times in the whole game he losses possession and 1 of them was a 50/50.

I've read that he hasn't got a good engine, this again is a myth, the lad, when allowed is box to box for the full ninety. He goes on countless breakaways, esp in the last 20 minutes of the game.

I should imagine he's getting told by Rafa to keep it simple, don't do anything flash, just get it and give it. Let the superstars do the flashy stuff.

He reminds me of a bit in that way of cally when he played center mid field, the player who binds the team together and lets others play their own game.
Nothing flash, nothing fancy..

When Masch got his 4 game ban i said on another thread it would be a good thing, I see more in Lucas as a team builder/binder, than i ever have done in Masch and with GJ now out for however long, it would be Masch i consider moving to rightback, if none of the lads are fully ready to step up..

Thank you Dids!

This is what I couldn't be arsed typing for you Rednoodle. I previously, and somewhat pedantically, went into great detail on a thread stating the actual minutes and what positive actions he had done (I think it was in the Bolton game) that showed up your argument to be a load of tosh. Dids is absolutely correct. Lucas is in the team to play a specific role and let others get on with the flashy stuff. He does it very well, passes the ball well to feet and in the right place (not behind the player he is aiming at) sometimes sideways but MAINLY FORWARD and at times makes very positive surges into the box too. See Benayoun's goal v Wolves. Who's that lad that made the run in front of him to try and get in for a header. Well fuck me if it wasn't our Lucas. Keep it up son. You're doing just fine!

[scaton]

I don't believe Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal would buy Darren Fletcher but he was a huge loss to United in the Champions' League final last season. It isn't always about superstars, it's about a mix of special players and water carriers. So Lucas is the latter - it doesn't prevent him from being an important player for Liverpool.

I would take Fletcher in a heartbeat. He's better than any of our centre midfielders.

He's the player Lucas needs to try and become. If he can add the goals, he has a chance at this.

[MikeyRed]

Of course Lucas has improved but he was abysmal before. The question that I don't think anyone has a reasonable answer to is why look to sell Alonso for Barry when we had a midfielder in Lucas that was far weaker. People can argue about funds but at the time we we're looking for about 18 million or so for Alonso and could have saved £7 million by not scapegoating Riise and bringing in Dossena and not spending £20 million on Keane to sell him 4 months later. Played right we could have Barry/Alonso and Masch as three players competing for two midfield spots with Barry switching to the left if needs be. Now no-one sane is going to tell me that what we have now is anywhere close to that. So what if he's improved? He was one of the worst midfielders in the premiership for two and a bit seasons. We're left with a team for about 20 games that can't score from midfield because the midfielders are 'defensive' and a team that ships about two goals a game because those defensive midfielders don't seem to work as defensive midfielders. For me I'd be looking to bring in a another manager and the answer as to who would be anyone that would sell Kuyt and Lucas. He's only just stopped being a liability - bully for him.

[Finlay's Dad]

Of course Lucas has improved but he was abysmal before. The question that I don't think anyone has a reasonable answer to is why look to sell Alonso for Barry when we had a midfielder in Lucas that was far weaker. People can argue about funds but at the time we we're looking for about 18 million or so for Alonso and could have saved £7 million by not scapegoating Riise and bringing in Dossena and not spending £20 million on Keane to sell him 4 months later. Played right we could have Barry/Alonso and Masch as three players competing for two midfield spots with Barry switching to the left if needs be. Now no-one sane is going to tell me that what we have now is anywhere close to that. So what if he's improved? He was one of the worst midfielders in the premiership for two and a bit seasons. We're left with a team for about 20 games that can't score from midfield because the midfielders are 'defensive' and a team that ships about two goals a game because those defensive midfielders don't seem to work as defensive midfielders. For me I'd be looking to bring in a another manager and the answer as to who would be anyone that would sell Kuyt and Lucas. He's only just stopped being a liability - bully for him.

It's so simple isn't it? Like yourself really.

[GMan]

you know, Lucas does seem to have spent a bit of time with the weights

but, he just does not seem to have "it" ... i know that is very non-analytical and he could very easily come good

and i know as a defensive midfielder, goal scoring is not the priority .... certainly Masch, who i love, is no finisher by a long shot, but Lucas has had a lot of pitch time and he has had some huge chances and just looking at how he's "tried" to finish them ... the word passive comes to mind

does he pass well, sure ... vision=pretty good ... he does make runs, which helps to create space for others if nothing else, but he's not good in the air, he's a poor tackler and like i said, by this point his head, at the very least, should have connected with something that ended up in the back of the net, IMO

2009/10 Premier League
Games Goals Assists
20 0 1

[Finlay's Dad]

you know, Lucas does seem to have spent a bit of time with the weights

but, he just does not seem to have "it" ... i know that is very non-analytical and he could very easily come good

and i know as a defensive midfielder, goal scoring is not the priority .... certainly Masch, who i love, is no finisher by a long shot, but Lucas has had a lot of pitch time and he has had some huge chances and just looking at how he's "tried" to finish them ... the word passive comes to mind

does he pass well, sure ... vision=pretty good ... he does make runs, which helps to create space for others if nothing else, but he's not good in the air, he's a poor tackler and like i said, by this point his head, at the very least, should have connected with something that ended up in the back of the net, IMO

2009/10 Premier League
Games Goals Assists
20 0 1

Yeah he's awful. FFS! :rolleyes:

[North Wales Red]

If Mascherano isn't available then he's ok in that position but I would never have him as the more forward of any midfield duo.

[red4life86]

He's scored a header against Newcastle. Dear me, when the lad's not liked, he's nit liked is he.

(Obviously because I've pointed this out it means he's the best player that we've ever had)

[Finlay's Dad]

He's scored a header against Newcastle. Dear me, when the lad's not liked, he's nit liked is he.

(Obviously because I've pointed this out it means he's the best player that we've ever had)

I think he was referring to this season but it's arse anyway. He also scored a header against Crewe in the Carling Cup last season methinks ;)

[red4life86]

Ah I see. Well he did miss a decent chance to win the game against city. No player has ever ever let us down like that before. The lad must be shit. Since he's filled in for Masch in the DM role, god knows how many goals we've conceded or how many points we've dropped. Shit, shit, shit.

[bjornebye20]

Ah I see. Well he did miss a decent chance to win the game against city. No player has ever ever let us down like that before. The lad must be shit. Since he's filled in for Masch in the DM role, god knows how many goals we've conceded or how many points we've dropped. Shit, shit, shit.

As much as you say that, (I am a Lucas fan) I do think it would do him wonders to work on his shooting and finishing. He has missed a few sitters in his time. I bet if he had 5+ goals to his name there would be a lot less critics.

[red4life86]

I'd love to see him score more goals. There's a few in the team that I could level that at mind that don't the stick that the young lad gets.

[candyman]

As much as you say that, (I am a Lucas fan) I do think it would do him wonders to work on his shooting and finishing. He has missed a few sitters in his time. I bet if he had 5+ goals to his name there would be a lot less critics.

Agree with that. It's his weakest area. Sometimes it's as if he's never seen an opposition goal before.

[Finlay's Dad]

As much as you say that, (I am a Lucas fan) I do think it would do him wonders to work on his shooting and finishing. He has missed a few sitters in his time. I bet if he had 5+ goals to his name there would be a lot less critics.

Over the course of his league career? I bet there wouldn't.

[bjornebye20]

Over the course of his league career? I bet there wouldn't.

...over a season

[North Wales Red]

As much as you say that, (I am a Lucas fan) I do think it would do him wonders to work on his shooting and finishing. He has missed a few sitters in his time. I bet if he had 5+ goals to his name there would be a lot less critics.

Is that something you can work on?
I'd have thought that if you haven't got that ability by the time you get to a certain age you'll never have it.

[Finlay's Dad]

...over a season

I'd like that but given what his role is within the team it's highly unlikely. I'd also like to see more goals from Agger or Carragher on set pieces but the way we attack the ball from set pieces means that is unlikely to happen also :(

[Finlay's Dad]

Is that something you can work on?
I'd have thought that if you haven't got that ability by the time you get to a certain age you'll never have it.

He can definitely do it as he proved in Brasil. I think his composure goes because of all the stick he was getting from his own fans. Hopefully that has changed now and when a chance comes along he will take it calmly and not rush at the thing.

[kellysheroes]

Is that something you can work on?
I'd have thought that if you haven't got that ability by the time you get to a certain age you'll never have it.
Yes you can practice what to do when you get into the right position, but I actually think its a confidence thing, he gets there ie city last minute and then freezes, now whether thats down to knowing he's going to get slaughtered if he misses, as he invariably does unfortunately, I dont know but it cant help can it.
Regardless of that thought he was motm at the Villa but you know he'd need to have scored the winner and pulled off the save from Downing as well for some to give him just a little bit of credit.

[MikeyRed]

You add five league goals a season to his game, some ability in the air to help us defend set pieces and okay it's worth talking about him in a different light but as it is we're still talking about a player who isn't adding any more to his team than between ten and twenty other defensive midfielders in the country. If he's not a defensive midfielder per se. then 1 goal from 63 Premier league games is not good enough. If you give Kuyt a couple of yards of pace he'd be brilliant, give Gerrard and Torres a really good midfield behind them and they could win the premiership, give Finley's Dad a brain he'd be capable of better argument than just calling people simple but for the moment let's judge people on what they've done rather than things hoped upon them.

[corroonb]

I think Lucas is a very good all round midfielder and a very good player to have in our squad. A little more polish and he will be excellent. He's shown real grit to cope with all the stick he gets, look at how Voronin reacted and he's much more experienced.

[candyman]

He can definitely do it as he proved in Brasil. I think his composure goes because of all the stick he was getting from his own fans. Hopefully that has changed now and when a chance comes along he will take it calmly and not rush at the thing.

This I think is true, Remember his goal against H&W?

[2elfc]

I can see Lucas being a lot like Hamann in the future. The type of player who does his job in the middle of the park and you don't really notice him when he's on the pitch but when he's not playing you notice that he's missing

[glentoran]

I can see Lucas being a lot like Hamann in the future. The type of player who does his job in the middle of the park and you don't really notice him when he's on the pitch but when he's not playing you notice that he's missing
Maybe like Hamann, but I really can't see it happening. Didi read the game so well to make up for a lack of pace, broke up attacks, played simply but progressively, and weighed in with the odd goal. Lucas doesn't really contribute much except that he covers a space in midfield.
Sometimes I have the feeling that certain fans are seeing Lucas as representation of Rafa, on the pitch, and so are championing his inclusion as they are loathe to criticize Rafa.

[2elfc]

I reckon he breaks up attacks quite well. Against the mancs he was brilliant. Still not a starter for me though. I'd rather see Mascherano in the middle with Aquillani but I definately think he's a good player to have in the squad and I don't think anyone can say that he hasn't improved over this season

[kellysheroes]

Maybe like Hamann, but I really can't see it happening. Didi read the game so well to make up for a lack of pace, broke up attacks, played simply but progressively, and weighed in with the odd goal. Lucas doesn't really contribute much except that he covers a space in midfield.
Sometimes I have the feeling that certain fans are seeing Lucas as representation of Rafa, on the pitch, and so are championing his inclusion as they are loathe to criticize Rafa.

Similarly the reverse could also be applied, ie dont like Rafa, dont like Lucas.
For what its worth, I think both options are happening on here.
Anyone who does either should divorce the two in their opinions, its quite unfair on both people.

[Finlay's Dad]

You add five league goals a season to his game, some ability in the air to help us defend set pieces and okay it's worth talking about him in a different light but as it is we're still talking about a player who isn't adding any more to his team than between ten and twenty other defensive midfielders in the country. If he's not a defensive midfielder per se. then 1 goal from 63 Premier league games is not good enough. If you give Kuyt a couple of yards of pace he'd be brilliant, give Gerrard and Torres a really good midfield behind them and they could win the premiership, give Finley's Dad a brain he'd be capable of better argument than just calling people simple but for the moment let's judge people on what they've done rather than things hoped upon them.

You could at least spell my son's name right you tool! :mad:

[Finlay's Dad]

Of course Lucas has improved but he was abysmal before. The question that I don't think anyone has a reasonable answer to is why look to sell Alonso for Barry when we had a midfielder in Lucas that was far weaker. People can argue about funds but at the time we we're looking for about 18 million or so for Alonso and could have saved £7 million by not scapegoating Riise and bringing in Dossena and not spending £20 million on Keane to sell him 4 months later. Played right we could have Barry/Alonso and Masch as three players competing for two midfield spots with Barry switching to the left if needs be. Now no-one sane is going to tell me that what we have now is anywhere close to that. So what if he's improved? He was one of the worst midfielders in the premiership for two and a bit seasons. We're left with a team for about 20 games that can't score from midfield because the midfielders are 'defensive' and a team that ships about two goals a game because those defensive midfielders don't seem to work as defensive midfielders. For me I'd be looking to bring in a another manager and the answer as to who would be anyone that would sell Kuyt and Lucas. He's only just stopped being a liability - bully for him.

What's that smell?....hmmm....

[bjornebye20]

I definitely think he could improve his goalscoring record. As someone mentioned before, he is capable of striking the ball, as you can see from his Gremio days and his one flash against H&W. On the one part its just having the confidence to strike the ball if the chance is there.
The goal he scored against Atleti pre season showed that he can get in the right positions and that he can finish well...just he wont be in those positions too often.
But most importantly I can remember him missing quite a few sitters last season, I seem to have Bolton and Newcastle in my mind. We won both games comfortably, but it would do him no harm to score.

A few extra hours on the training ground a week would do it and a bit of luck.

[bjornebye20]

Maybe like Hamann, but I really can't see it happening. Didi read the game so well to make up for a lack of pace, broke up attacks, played simply but progressively, and weighed in with the odd goal. Lucas doesn't really contribute much except that he covers a space in midfield.
Sometimes I have the feeling that certain fans are seeing Lucas as representation of Rafa, on the pitch, and so are championing his inclusion as they are loathe to criticize Rafa.

I had forgotten just how brilliant Hamann was. How did Kenny sign him from Bayern?...and how did we steal him so easily?

[teesred]

What's that smell?....hmmm....

Finlays Dad?...............aka Lucas' mam.

[glentoran]

[/B]

Similarly the reverse could also be applied, ie dont like Rafa, dont like Lucas.
For what its worth, I think both options are happening on here.
Anyone who does either should divorce the two in their opinions, its quite unfair on both people.
That's a fair point. From my own perspective I was unsure of the signing of BOTH Mascherano and Lucas but when Javier actually played I was impressed straight off. With Lucas I had the opposite reaction. It's likely unfair to compare the two, but age-wise there's not much between them, and maybe Lucas can develop, but at a club like ourselves, can we afford to give a player another 30 games to prove himself when we need results quickly?

[Finlay's Dad]

Finlays Dad?...............aka Lucas' mam.

When I keep hearing bullshit being said about him then I'll keep defending him. If that means I'm his Mam then so be it.

[Dids]

Maybe like Hamann, but I really can't see it happening. Didi read the game so well to make up for a lack of pace, broke up attacks, played simply but progressively, and weighed in with the odd goal. Lucas doesn't really contribute much except that he covers a space in midfield.
Sometimes I have the feeling that certain fans are seeing Lucas as representation of Rafa, on the pitch, and so are championing his inclusion as they are loathe to criticize Rafa.

They'd be the ones singing his name at the end of the villa game.

[glentoran]

They'd be the ones singing his name at the end of the villa game.
Maybe some did feel he had a good match, some were just happy at beating Villa, and others perhaps felt sorry for him, I guess. He gets a lot of unwarranted abuse too.
He's Rafa's mainstay in the team alongside Pepe, so like I said before, if a fan is pro-Rafa he probably is pro-Lucas. And yeah, the reverse is true as well.

[glentoran]

I had forgotten just how brilliant Hamann was. How did Kenny sign him from Bayern?...and how did we steal him so easily?

He was a gem. And was a huge help for Stevie. He never seemed to hurry. A wee bit like Jan Molby, but then big Jan COULDN'T hurry.

[Dids]

Maybe some did feel he had a good match, some were just happy at beating Villa, and others perhaps felt sorry for him, I guess. He gets a lot of unwarranted abuse too.
He's Rafa's mainstay in the team alongside Pepe, so like I said before, if a fan is pro-Rafa he probably is pro-Lucas. And yeah, the reverse is true as well.

morning glen.

I dont see how the two go together, i like rafa but couldn't stand Alonso who was his mainstay before Lucas, i'm not to fond of Masch either.
If someone is petty enough to judge one person by his opinion of another then they really shouldn't be bleating on here or anywhere else.

It seems people want instant success and aren't prepared to wait for YOUNG players to develop. To grow into a team.
Loyalty is a two way thing. If you want a player to be loyal to the fans then the fans have got to be worth it, show some back, support them through the early years.

.
Some players just get better and better the more they play, Lucas being one.
A lot of the youth players Paisley brought through, were exactly the same, they needed time on the pitch to develop. And this is despite the fact the had a huge advantage over the players today. They could play reserve team football.

Like i say i've been starting Lucas threads for nearly two years, I first saw him in our reserves and he was brilliant, stood out from everyone else on the pitch. He only played for them a couple of times which was a pity.

Now you should judge players at their own level i.e. youth, reserve or 1st team. If a young player stands out in both of the first two, then it's a good bet, if his heads right, that given time to mature he will stand out in the 1st team.
But time is the key with a huge majority of young players. Time to develop. Lucas is only just stopped being a boy, his now turning into a man, his bollocks are only just dropping. In 2 years he'll be 25 come back then and judge Lucas the man. Because by then he will be The Man.

We bought McDermott when he was the same age Lucas is now. Have a look what we did with him for the next two years.

[glentoran]

morning glen.

I dont see how the two go together, i like rafa but couldn't stand Alonso who was his mainstay before Lucas, i'm not to fond of Masch either.
If someone is petty enough to judge one person by his opinion of another then they really shouldn't be bleating on here or anywhere else.

It seems people want instant success and aren't prepared to wait for YOUNG players to develop. To grow into a team.
Loyalty is a two way thing. If you want a player to be loyal to the fans then the fans have got to be worth it, show some back, support them through the early years.

.
Some players just get better and better the more they play, Lucas being one.
A lot of the youth players Paisley brought through, were exactly the same, they needed time on the pitch to develop. And this is despite the fact the had a huge advantage over the players today. They could play reserve team football.

Like i say i've been starting Lucas threads for nearly two years, I first saw him in our reserves and he was brilliant, stood out from everyone else on the pitch. He only played for them a couple of times which was a pity.

Now you should judge players at their own level i.e. youth, reserve or 1st team. If a young player stands out in both of the first two, then it's a good bet, if his heads right, that given time to mature he will stand out in the 1st team.
But time is the key with a huge majority of young players. Time to develop. Lucas is only just stopped being a boy, his now turning into a man, his bollocks are only just dropping. In 2 years he'll be 25 come back then and judge Lucas the man. Because by then he will be The Man.

We bought McDermott when he was the same age Lucas is now. Have a look what we did with him for the next two years.

Great post. I haven't seen much of the reserves unfortunately, so I defer to you on that. I've seen a lot of Lucas in the first team and can't really agree with you on the fella. But, Terry Mac was a legend for us and if you think Lucas can mature to anywhere even 50 percent of McDermott then he'll be a heck of a player. I hope I'm wrong about him, because I'd never want any lad wearing the red to fail.

[kellysheroes]

I had forgotten just how brilliant Hamann was. How did Kenny sign him from Bayern?...and how did we steal him so easily?

Pardon ?

[Dids]

Pardon ?

For NUFC

[kellysheroes]

For NUFC
Ah - with it now - thanks Dids.
Sorry Bjornebye - caught me out there:o

[Dids]

Lucas by far our best outfield player yesterday and we would truly be in the shit if he hadn't been playing.
Did everything asked of him and did all SG work as well..

[glentoran]

Lucas by far our best outfield player yesterday and we would truly be in the shit if he hadn't been playing.
Did everything asked of him and did all SG work as well..

I thought Torres did ok. Often he was quite isolated. And he is miles away from fitness. Darby didn't do much wrong. Perhaps throwing Pacheco in now would be a worthwhile gamble?

[Lfcwinners]

I dont see how the two go together, i like rafa but couldn't stand Alonso who was his mainstay before Lucas, i'm not to fond of Masch either.


I'm confused as of what you want our team to be. A second rate team with no title ambitions or a team of champions? How couldn't you stand Alonso or Mascherano and you are full of praise for an average player who plays for a team far far above his standards?
Do you ask for an Houllier team full of Biscans, Cisses and Traores? Because if Alonso was not one of our best buys in the last 6 years I don't know who is.
If you meant it as a dislike then we don't dislike Lucas, it is simply that we want a much more capable player in his position.
And it is not about the chance...Most, if not all players, show how much they have in them. Lucas has the hunger and the will to learn but this is as far as he goes. He simply doesn't have that extra that makes him a worthy midfielder for Liverpool.
Pacheco for example shows brilliance in his game and that's even before getting a real chance, he shows commitment and I'm 100% that given a chance he will be a star. I can't say that for Lucas though, he got a lot of chance, he is better than last year but he is still nowhere near what we really want.
Lucas can be a good holding midfielder, playing as a back up for MAschero(or get his full game in the future), but he is not good as a playmaker, like Alonso was and he will never be.

[bjornebye20]

Lucas' passing against Reading inparticular was brilliant, he completely dismissed the "only passes sideways" bullshit. Not to mention he fulfilled his usual role aswell.

If Lucas and Gerrard were simply known as Player 1 and Player 2 respectively, you would have said Lucas was in another league to Gerrard. Gerrard has survived solely on his reputation so far this season and I hope he returns to form soon.

Didn't see Lucas give away the ball once against Reading...apart from when he received the odd hospital pass.

[Lfcwinners]

Lucas' passing against Reading inparticular was brilliant, he completely dismissed the "only passes sideways" bullshit. Not to mention he fulfilled his usual role aswell.

If Lucas and Gerrard were simply known as Player 1 and Player 2 respectively, you would have said Lucas was in another league to Gerrard. Gerrard has survived solely on his reputation so far this season and I hope he returns to form soon.

Didn't see Lucas give away the ball once against Reading...apart from when he received the odd hospital pass.

How can one or two or even three games of good play makes you an excellent player? His usual role? What usual role? Mascherano was out...who was the holding midfielder? Lucas! He wasn't in his usual role...far from it. Lucas is supposed to play as he played with Reading...having a limited role upfront. His usual role meant he had a more go in the opposition box, but as we saw he is not so capable of that.
Lucas can be the main shield of our defense in the future, but he cannot have a playmaker role as he can't be good at that on a regular basis.
And how can you bash Gerrard for having a bad season? All players have at least one bad season in their careers, is that an excuse to compare him with Lucas? Yeah Lucas was in another league from Gerrard against Reading because almost everybody on the pitch was far below his best and Lucas was at his best.

[konghøst]

How can one or two or even three games of good play makes you an excellent player? His usual role? What usual role? Mascherano was out...who was the holding midfielder? Lucas! He wasn't in his usual role...far from it. Lucas is supposed to play as he played with Reading...having a limited role upfront. His usual role meant he had a more go in the opposition box, but as we saw he is not so capable of that.
Lucas can be the main shield of our defense in the future, but he cannot have a playmaker role as he can't be good at that on a regular basis.
And how can you bash Gerrard for having a bad season? All players have at least one bad season in their careers, is that an excuse to compare him with Lucas? Yeah Lucas was in another league from Gerrard against Reading because almost everybody on the pitch was far below his best and Lucas was at his best.

Christ, you really can't live with the fact that many people actually appreciates what Lucas is doing. Get over yourself

[miller0863]

I thought Lucas was one of our best performers against Reading but to say he didn't give the ball away once is stretching a point to say the very least.

[alifino]

He didnt say that though. He said he didnt see him give away the ball apart from when he received the odd hospital pass. I think thats fair. He didnt give away the ball sloppily from what i can remember did he?

[mccoydromintee]

I thought Lucas was one of our best performers against Reading but to say he didn't give the ball away once is stretching a point to say the very least.

He gave it away twice in 90 minutes. I kept an eye out for it. Although that does nt include the dink over to Gerrard, an intelligent pass, suppose that counts as well as a misplaced pass in the stats.

[miller0863]

Grief, talk about splitting hairs. What's the difference between saying "Lucas didn't give the ball away" and "I didn't see Lucas give the ball away," ? Who is he, Arsene Wenger ? If Lfctv re run the game again in the next day or two, I'll record it and stop when he reaches say...6 or 7 misplaced passes ? As I said, he had a good game but no need to go over the top.

[bjornebye20]

I genuinely dont remember him giving the ball away unless he received a hospital pass.
But this is rather besides the point.
The lad is constantly getting better

[konghøst]

Good news. Mascherano is due to be back for the Reading replay. Then Lucas can get a well deserved rest in that game ;)

[alifino]

Grief, talk about splitting hairs. What's the difference between saying "Lucas didn't give the ball away" and "I didn't see Lucas give the ball away," ? Who is he, Arsene Wenger ? If Lfctv re run the game again in the next day or two, I'll record it and stop when he reaches say...6 or 7 misplaced passes ? As I said, he had a good game but no need to go over the top.

I like that bit:D

Admittedly, i think at this stage i jump to his defence a bit much, but it seems he's more than worthy of receiving torrents of abuse after a poor showing, but deserves absolutely no praise whatsoever after a good one.

Thought he was much better against Villa anyway;)

[Scott M]

Lucas is slowly improving. i started off hating him, but he's beginning to win me over. i just wish he had more flair, dribbling skills and shooting skills.

[shmol]

Lucas is slowly improving. i started off hating him, but he's beginning to win me over. i just wish he had more flair, dribbling skills and shooting skills.
Hmmm, as a liverpool supporter I find the fact you started off hating him a little disturbing

[Scott M]

Hmmm, as a liverpool supporter I find the fact you started off hating him a little disturbing

i guess that was a bit extreme. i apologise. i didn't actually hate him, but he frustrated me.

[corroonb]

If you compare Lucas' progress to Anderson's (whom he played with at Gremio), then you'd have to conclude that Lucas is improving with every game and Anderson is not. Anderson was far more expensive and hyped and Lucas has outperformed him for the last two years.

[Duster]

Lucas is just one of a fair few who simply are not good enough to be playing first team football for Liverpool. The lad has improved but he still for me is not good enough.

[Dids]

Everyone in the team v spurs thread has picked Lucas.
Some have AA in along side him, some put in SG.
But every single person has picked him.

[Eising agreed]

Everyone in the team v spurs thread has picked Lucas.
Some have AA in along side him, some put in SG.
But every single person has picked him.

You've got to have someone to blame if we don't get a result.

Could do with a goal or two coming from everybody's favourite player. He's had a couple of chances to be a hero this season with headed goals and he's not managed it. Hopefully won't be long in coming.

[Leviathan]

You've got to have someone to blame if we don't get a result.

Could do with a goal or two coming from everybody's favourite player. He's had a couple of chances to be a hero this season with headed goals and he's not managed it. Hopefully won't be long in coming.

I'll be happy with another solid performance and 3 points, to be honest.

[Eising agreed]

I'll be happy with another solid performance and 3 points, to be honest.

What do you mean, another?;)

[kellysheroes]

Everyone in the team v spurs thread has picked Lucas.
Some have AA in along side him, some put in SG.
But every single person has picked him.
Amazingly 75% of these who have picked him are calling him shite in this thread. Followed by "we've got no-one else".
If he's that shite why dont these people put Spearing or Plessis in his place then.
2 reasons why
1) Someone to turn on if things go wrong
2) They cant admit that just at this moment in time he is not as bad as they would like him to be.

[kellysheroes]

I'll be happy with another solid performance and 3 points, to be honest.

I remember that Lev, wasnt it last time we played spurs at home in may

[PaulG]

Everyone in the team v spurs thread has picked Lucas.
Some have AA in along side him, some put in SG.
But every single person has picked him.

With Mascherano out that’s hardly surprising is it?

[North Wales Red]

Let's not split hairs. He's fuckin shit.

[konghøst]

Let's not split hairs. He's fuckin shit.

You are pathetic

[Eising agreed]

Let's not split hairs. He's fuckin shit.

Yes, get rid of Lucas and all our problems will simply melt away.

[North Wales Red]

You are pathetic

He's been a virtual ever present in one of our worst seasons under Benitez. He might not be shit, maybe I am being harsh but he's nowhere near good enough for our midfield and he never will be.

[konghøst]

He's been a virtual ever present in one of our worst seasons under Benitez. He might not be shit, maybe I am being harsh but he's nowhere near good enough for our midfield and he never will be.

Whatever

You are just in need of a scape goat


Let's get rid of Reina, Carragher, Insua, Kuyt etc while we're at it. They been virtual ever present also. Gerrard, Torres, Benayoun and Agger too.

[vin]

He's been a virtual ever present in one of our worst seasons under Benitez. He might not be shit, maybe I am being harsh but he's nowhere near good enough for our midfield and he never will be.

I agree. He is anonymous for large parts of the game. At best he is average, but put in a good tackle or two and nice sideways pass and everyone will tell you how he is coming good.

[Solschenizyn]

He's been a virtual ever present in one of our worst seasons under Benitez. He might not be shit, maybe I am being harsh but he's nowhere near good enough for our midfield and he never will be.

I am not a big fan of Lucas but in the last couple of weeks he has been doing a better job than most of the other players.

[Eising agreed]

He's been a virtual ever present in one of our worst seasons under Benitez. He might not be shit, maybe I am being harsh but he's nowhere near good enough for our midfield and he never will be.

Who was better tonight? If the rest of them pulled their fingers out he might be the worst player on the pitch but they don't, he does and still gets the blame.

[vin]

Who was better tonight? If the rest of them pulled their fingers out he might be the worst player on the pitch but they don't, he does and still gets the blame.

Is he getting the blame? I think he's just pointing out that Lucas may not be good enough to command a regular starting spot.

[North Wales Red]

Whatever

You are just in need of a scape goat


Let's get rid of Reina, Carragher, Insua, Kuyt etc while we're at it. They been virtual ever present also. Gerrard, Torres, Benayoun and Agger too.

Well Kuyt can go as well now that you mention it.

l'm not blaming the lad. God knows he tries his best but this isn't about that. He just doesn't have what it takes.
If anything it's Benitez' fault for persisting with him . Same with Kuyt.

[konghøst]

Let's not split hairs. He's fuckin shit.

Is he getting the blame? I think he's just pointing out that Lucas may not be good enough to command a regular starting spot.


There is a slight lack of understanding on what he was pointing out on your behalf;)

[Leviathan]

Fuckin same old record. Auto-shift blame to Lucas, Although not at fault for anything in the game.

[Eising agreed]

Is he getting the blame? I think he's just pointing out that Lucas may not be good enough to command a regular starting spot.

It sounded like he was getting the blame to me. OK he's not Jimmy Case or Joey Jones but is that his fault? I'd argue he did a lot more than others tonight. He does need to step things up a bit but he does seem to be trying, got Aquilani out of the shit a few times tonight as well.

[North Wales Red]

It sounded like he was getting the blame to me. OK he's not Jimmy Case or Joey Jones but is that his fault? I'd argue he did a lot more than others tonight. He does need to step things up a bit but he does seem to be trying, got Aquilani out of the shit a few times tonight as well.

See now we are getting somewhere. trying is all he can do. he just hasn't got what it takes like Kuyt and yes they do work hard for the team but that's not enough at the top level.

[konghøst]

See now we are getting somewhere. trying is all he can do. he just hasn't got what it takes like Kuyt and yes they do work hard for the team but that's not enough at the top level.

Did you say the same last season?

[North Wales Red]

Did you say the same last season?

Actually I've always thought Lucas was ordinary. Kuyt got better but was never a world beater and he seems to have gone backwards this season dramatically.

[Finlay's Dad]

I agree. He is anonymous for large parts of the game. At best he is average, but put in a good tackle or two and nice sideways pass and everyone will tell you how he is coming good.

Yeah, we'll ignore the through balls that he played through to Babel and Benayoun when he fucked up and when he created the chance for Ngog wont we? Unbelievabel. I can't believe what I'm hearing from supposed knowledgeable fans. Disgraceful!

[Finlay's Dad]

Fuckin same old record. Auto-shift blame to Lucas, Although not at fault for anything in the game.

Unfortunately some of these people just ignore ANYTHING positive that he does.

[konghøst]

Actually I've always thought Lucas was ordinary. Kuyt got better but was never a world beater and he seems to have gone backwards this season dramatically.

Agreed, but last year he was a top top player;)

[konghøst]

Yeah, we'll ignore the through balls that he played through to Babel and Benayoun when he fucked up and when he created the chance for Ngog wont we? Unbelievabel. I can't believe what I'm hearing from supposed knowledgeable fans. Disgraceful!

It's extremely annoying. If they must have a scape goat at least let it be someone who actually is shit.

[red4life86]

I've genuinely not read any page other than this one about Lucas tonight but anyone suggesting he was at fault for the result really needs to have a fucking word with themself.

[Eising agreed]

See now we are getting somewhere. trying is all he can do. he just hasn't got what it takes like Kuyt and yes they do work hard for the team but that's not enough at the top level.

It's a bloody good start though, one or two others could do with trying a bit harder. He is average but when has that been a disability in an all conquering Liverpool team? We've had average players before I don't see why he gets picked on.

[red2]

Yeah, we'll ignore the through balls that he played through to Babel and Benayoun when he fucked up and when he created the chance for Ngog wont we? Unbelievabel. I can't believe what I'm hearing from supposed knowledgeable fans. Disgraceful!

and you are knowledgeable... if you think lucas should be in a liverpool team, you are not very knowledgeable at all.. hes average, we are liverpool, supposed to be the best or one of the best, and with players like lucas, kuyt, ngog, insua in a starting 11 consistently, with hot and cold players like benni and johnson average is what you will get. Like what we have been getting all season. would you agree

[red2]

It's a bloody good start though, one or two others could do with trying a bit harder. He is average but when has that been a disability in an all conquering Liverpool team? We've had average players before I don't see why he gets picked on.

because he is in one the most important positions on the pitch and he doesnt do enough in there

[Finlay's Dad]

and you are knowledgeable... if you think lucas should be in a liverpool team, you are not very knowledgeable at all.. hes average, we are liverpool, supposed to be the best or one of the best, and with players like lucas, kuyt, ngog, insua in a starting 11 consistently, with hot and cold players like benni and johnson average is what you will get. Like what we have been getting all season. would you agree

I'd happily see Kuyt, Insua and Babel sold and I think Benayoun is very patchy indeed and makes some bizarre decisions on occasions. However, I do rate Lucas and think he will be an excellent midfielder by the time he's 25 and I am more than happy with the way he is coming along thanks.

Are you another WUM?

[eamonn sfx on tour]

Enough is enough !!!! I dont post often but this is driving me to distraction watch the bloody match not listen to the commentators--Lucas was the best most passionate player out there by a country mile!!!

[red2]

I'd happily see Kuyt, Insua and Babel sold and I think Benayoun is very patchy indeed and makes some bizarre decisions on occasions. However, I do rate Lucas and think he will be an excellent midfielder by the time he's 25 and I am more than happy with the way he is coming along thanks.

Are you another WUM?

no mate, just as pissed off as you, hope you are right about lucas, and maybe if he wasnt in the firing line as much he maybe better for it. but for the moment he is there, and for me, he is not doing it. but i would agree with some fans points regarding lucas, he does try and gives 100%, which cannot be said for alot of the players

[konghøst]

I'd happily see Kuyt, Insua and Babel sold and I think Benayoun is very patchy indeed and makes some bizarre decisions on occasions. However, I do rate Lucas and think he will be an excellent midfielder by the time he's 25 and I am more than happy with the way he is coming along thanks.

Are you another WUM?


That I completely disagree with because

1: He is home grown
2: Young with a lot of potential. Has one hell of a shot on him and can really cross a ball
3: It's to early to tell if he can't be better at defending

[Eising agreed]

That I completely disagree with because

1: He is home grown
2: Young with a lot of potential. Has one hell of a shot on him and can really cross a ball
3: It's to early to tell if he can't be better at defending

He's not consistent at the moment though and he is very very slow at getting back. After some of Aurelio's performances last season and Insua's early promise I thought we'd fixed that problem. He's done well at times for a young lad but if you are going to bomb forward like he does you need to get back, he's no athlete that's for sure.

Apart from the home grown bit (which is an odd term for an Argentinian international) you could say the same for Riise, he couldn't defend either. Whatever your attributes, as a left back you need to be able to defend, anything else is a bonus.

[Finlay's Dad]

That I completely disagree with because

1: He is home grown
2: Young with a lot of potential. Has one hell of a shot on him and can really cross a ball
3: It's to early to tell if he can't be better at defending

But he can't defend and is got at far too easily. If he had any pace then he could recover much like Johnson does but that second goal for example...the way he just opened his legs like that was pathetic as was Benayoun's ridiculous selling of himself.

[konghøst]

He's not consistent at the moment though and he is very very slow at getting back. After some of Aurelio's performances last season and Insua's early promise I thought we'd fixed that problem. He's done well at times for a young lad but if you are going to bomb forward like he does you need to get back, he's no athlete that's for sure.

Apart from the home grown bit (which is an odd term for an Argentinian international) you could say the same for Riise, he couldn't defend either. Whatever your attributes, as a left back you need to be able to defend, anything else is a bonus.

I agree that right now he ain't setting the world on fire. I just disagree with the statement that he should be sold. He's a keeper for long term and right now he should be back up for Aurelio (if he is ever fit for a few games in a row)

[konghøst]

But he can't defend and is got at far too easily. If he had any pace then he could recover much like Johnson does but that second goal for example...the way he just opened his legs like that was pathetic as was Benayoun's ridiculous selling of himself.

So the answer is to sell?

To many fans are crying out for players to be shipped out as soon as they have a bad patch of games.

[Finlay's Dad]

So the answer is to sell?

To many fans are crying out for players to be shipped out as soon as they have a bad patch of games.

I think he's an ok left back but he has serious mobility issues and he isn't learning from the mistakes he makes in games. He's still very young but whereas I can see an improvement in Lucas and think he will go on to be a great midfielder I don't think Insua is good enough to take the next step. I don't think he's that good a crosser of the ball either. Most of the time he hits the 1st defender or turns inside and passes it to a supporting midfielder instead of whipping a cross into the box. Great cross for Gerrard's header the other week but can't remember too many of those kinda crosses coming in from him.

[fiordearg]

gone be days when you could a scot from partick thistle, an irishman from home farm or an englishman from crewe.

[Eising agreed]

gone be days when you could a scot from partick thistle, an irishman from home farm or an englishman from crewe.

You can still get them but they cost upwards of £5million probably. I'm not sure about the Scots or Irish but if they're English they do.

[Omar C.]

I feel Lucas has been doing quite well this season, efficient, but not exciting, but always improving. Thought he had a mixed game yesterday v Spurs.

Great without the ball, abysmal with it. Found a Spurs player with many mis-hit passes.
Seemed to be one of his poorer games in a while after a long period of consistency, but interestingly he's been left alone by those normally quite open and vociferous about his limitations.

This may be because of the sheer collective joy/relief at the gritty performance put in by all, or maybe its just because we won.

[Finlay's Dad]

Shhhhh. Whisper this but I don't think he played very well last night.

That's all.

Lucas' Ma

[scaton]

Thought he was crap last night.

[HenderRed]

Just watched the recording of the match and thought the general passing of the team was inconsistant. Some good flowing stuff but lots of poor passing and limited movement. We struggled a little in the counter attack due mainly to lack of pace and could fully exploit it. Lucas was below his recent performance level though did quite well. His passing wasn't too bad and no worse than most out there. Good gutsy performance overall and right till the end, with some signs of improvement of certain individuals namely Kyrgiakos who's had a good couple of games and seems to enjoy getting in on the attack as well as pretty solid defensively. Aquilani is settling in more but not quite there yet. Carra did well and was showing good leadership. Good to have Riera back. Looking forward to seeing a lot more of Maxi who I reckon is going to be a good addition for us. Hopefully we might get another player or 2 before the end of the month.

[Eising agreed]

Lucas had the worst passing game I've seen him have last night I think. He was great winning headers in our half though and was solid defensively and picking up loose balls.

[kellysheroes]

Agree that he had his worst game for some time last night, but once more you couldnt fault his effort.
Strange that when he plays well and that has been regular this season he gets slaughtered, last night & today - nothing from the usual suspects when they finally have the ammunition.
I used to have a go about him reguarly to my nephew (not outwardly), but last season at the Chelsea home league game to hear the lads name booed when the teams were read out made me see him in a different light, it was totally wrong and it was then I thought fuck that I'm going to get behind him just to show him support.

[moe1971]

Agree that he had his worst game for some time last night, but once more you couldnt fault his effort.
Strange that when he plays well and that has been regular this season he gets slaughtered, last night & today - nothing from the usual suspects when they finally have the ammunition.
I used to have a go about him reguarly to my nephew (not outwardly), but last season at the Chelsea home league game to hear the lads name booed when the teams were read out made me see him in a different light, it was totally wrong and it was then I thought fuck that I'm going to get behind him just to show him support.


happened in the cup derby aswell and he was booed as he came on as sub obne game last season aswell.

[robbieB]

people who boo our players are not fans, they are not even wums, they ought to have a look in the mirror

[alifino]

happened in the cup derby aswell and he was booed as he came on as sub obne game last season aswell.

Think it was the Fulham game. There were boo's aplenty after it finished scoreless too.Despite the team going top of the table as a result.:rolleyes:

[Mick R]

Was that not West Ham? Early December? Or am I jumping in without reading the other posts first?

[Swiss LFC fan]

Was that not West Ham? Early December? Or am I jumping in without reading the other posts first?

Yeah, think you're right about West Ham!

[Ricky_Blowdeal]

He was booed against Fulham as Alonso was on the bench, and we substituted Masch instead of Lucas to bring Alonso on.

[alifino]

Actually yeah i think you're right about the West Ham game. Maybe the Fulham game was when chants of Alonso's name rang out whenever Lucas had the ball.

He got treated disgracefully when you think about it.

Edit-snap Ricky... :-)

[Red October]

Maybe he steps up to the plate more when the circumstances dictate. I thought he showed some leadership on Saturday when we were really up against it. Against spurs other players played better and he seemed to lack that leadership again. :confused:

[mccoydromintee]

Actually yeah i think you're right about the West Ham game. Maybe the Fulham game was when chants of Alonso's name rang out whenever Lucas had the ball.

He got treated disgracefully when you think about it.

Edit-snap Ricky... :-)

Fulham was the chanting I think.

When's the last player to get such treatment. Would have been 21 at the time of Fulham match too wouldn't he?

While nowhere near the finished product, his refusal to give in to those louts will mean he has my full support as he continues to improve considerably.

[moe1971]

Fulham was the chanting I think.

When's the last player to get such treatment. Would have been 21 at the time of Fulham match too wouldn't he?

While nowhere near the finished product, his refusal to give in to those louts will mean he has my full support as he continues to improve considerably.


murphy possibly?

maybe carra

[mccoydromintee]

murphy possibly?

maybe carra

You read Carra's book? It obviously upset him.

Murphy is a good shout.

[Ducatiboy749]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11096_2705370,00.html


some interesting stats;)

[Finlay's Dad]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11096_2705370,00.html


some interesting stats;)

1200 passes?! 1195 of them 5 yards and sideways though. Blah blah blah...

[dirty d]

do yo ever watch him??? he looks forward but no one makes any movement!!!! thats why he has to go sideways or backwards!!
he has good passing ability and has shown it, just doesnt have the players in front of him making the moves

[PaulG]

I've been saying all season he's better than that cunt Fabregas!

[bjornebye20]

I've been saying all season he's better than that cunt Fabregas!

Fabregas has been playing some brilliant football this season. But the two are completely different players. For starters Fabregas is a bit of a diving wimp that you can brush off the ball.

[PaulG]

Fabregas has been playing some brilliant football this season. But the two are completely different players. For starters Fabregas is a bit of a diving wimp that you can brush off the ball.

Went over your head a little that didn’t it.

[PaulG]

Tackles
1. Thomas
2. Mascherano
3. Lucas

Passes
1. Lucas
2. Mascherano

Just highlights the problem, two people doing pretty much the same. Both playing largely in front of the opposition’s midfield resulting in the ball getting “stuck” in our midfield with no one to provide forward momentum or link the attack and a lack of bodies going forward.

[Swiss LFC fan]

Tackles
1. Thomas
2. Mascherano
3. Lucas

Passes
1. Lucas
2. Mascherano

Just highlights the problem, two people doing pretty much the same. Both playing largely in front of the opposition’s midfield resulting in the ball getting “stuck” in our midfield with no one to provide forward momentum or link the attack and a lack of bodies going forward.

And that is my biggest grief with Rafa! Everybody, and I mean absolutely everybody can see that but Benitez can't?? Why he keeps playing both of them especially against lower opposition is completely beyond me..

[scaton]

He didn't play them both against Reading, lower league opposition.

We looked exactly the same.

[Kev0909]

Does anyone else think we had no pace whatsoever v wolves? apart from when Ngog came on. it's depressing.

[bjornebye20]

BUMP

Phenomenal yesterday, utterly brilliant. Shouldering the responsibility of playing CM by yourself against Everton with ten men. Brilliant.

Ignorance from the papers once again, rating him as 5 out of 10, I know its numbers but he was brilliant. Oh well, write off Rafa's key players at your peril because they come good; Kyrgiakos, Alonso, Degen, Masch, Benny, Dirk, to name just a few.

[Franny]

BUMP

Phenomenal yesterday, utterly brilliant. Shouldering the responsibility of playing CM by yourself against Everton with ten men. Brilliant.

Ignorance from the papers once again, rating him as 5 out of 10, I know its numbers but he was brilliant. Oh well, write off Rafa's key players at your peril because they come good; Kyrgiakos, Alonso, Degen, Masch, Benny, Dirk, to name just a few.

Agree with the comment about shouldering the responsibility. Mascherano is also our best fill in at right back.

[jose1985]

Lucas has been solid all season. When replaced aquilani last week i thought we looked solid.

[moe1971]

thought he had a great game yesterday

[MikeB]

Yeah....