Terror Attacks

[Red_on_Silver]

As a Muslim, I thought I would like to put my thought down on this Forum. If people want to debate, they can; if they merely want to read it, they can; if they want ask a question to others, they can.

I am saddened that everyday there is another person claiming to be a Muslim who wants to blow up his fellow human beings. Having just read about the young man that lost his life playing a sport that he loved, at a tender age of 17, I find it astonishing that people can take life or attempt to take the life of innocent people to further a cause.

Whether you agree or not on the fundemental point that Islam is a religion of peace, I challenge any Muslims or non-Muslims to show me in the noble Quran where it advocates the taking of innocent lives. In fact the Quran teaches us that taking the life of ONE innocent person is tantamount to the murder of the whole of humanity and that the saving of ONE life is equivalent to the saving of whole of humanity.

Many of you will point to references to 'kill' in the Quran. I ask you please don't beleive the hype, read the Quran and read it in context. If we look at the Old Testament, it is not devoid of references to kill but I will not look at my Christian neighbours as murdering hordes.

I feel grievences about Palestine, about our government's decision to invade Afghanistan and Iraq. However, I have a legitimate right to protest the actions of my government. I have no moral authority or indeed any Islamic authority to murder innocent civilians. I am commanded by God to obey the law of the land in which I reside, unless it conflicts with my ability to practice my faith. In such a scenario, I have a right of civil disobedeince or if I am persecuted I should leave that country for a country where I will be safe and I can practice my faith freely.

The level to which these people have are misguided and believe that by murdering innocent people they are furthering their cause; they couldn't be further from the truth. That supposedly intelligent people, two Doctors, could contemplate this type of action shocks me to the core.

I agree with everyone when they say our Government has double standards in it's foreign policy but the actions of these mindless individuals are not justified.

When I speak of the Quran, I am not offering platitudes, I am genuinely shocked at how people can twist a beautiful message into a message of hate. The message in the Quran is not for only the Muslims, it is a message for the whole of humanity. So when my fellow Muslims kill other human beings, they are acting against the direct command of God.

I ask everyone to stick together against the evil that is enveloping our society. I refuse to call it religious fantacism, Islamic fanatacism or Islamic terrorism because clearly these people are not religious or Islamic; they are merely Mindless Fanatics.

My message: we are ONE NATION, for all of humanity, people with faith or no faith.

[RedRich]

That made a very interesting read and you put your points across very well. I don't really feel 'qualified' to comment on such things as I don't feel I understand enough about Islam (or Christianity for that matter) to do so.

But I think it is very important to avoid knee-jerk, hate filled responses to attacks on unsuspecting people. Understanding, communication and empathy are the way to peace.

And as for your point about people twisting a beautiful message into one of hate is sadly something we will never be rid of, because there will always be people ready to commit atrocious acts.

[red brick]

Having spent all my life living in Northern Ireland I know all about people using religion as an excuse to murder innocent people. Its so easy to influence people, especially young people to do as you want if you can start brainwashing them at an early age. Here it started almost as soon as you were born and I can see that starting to happen with the muslim families soon too.
What really needs to happen is for the main muslim leaders to come out in every country and speak out against the radical preachers and to keep on preaching the message until it gets across that the radicals are wrong. It will be a slow process but its the only way. The preachers of hate have got it too easy for too long.

[makaveli18]

i totally agree with everything you have said. as a muslim myself and have read the quran many many times and also many other books and not in any of them it says killing innocent people is allowed. 90% of the muslims in uk will know this and will fore sure condemn all the stupid attacks that have gone on. i have never once seen anyone where i am from who thinks this is a good thing and dont think i will.

any muslim who practices his/her religion properly will for sure be a peaceful person, its just the small minority who has who are making muslims look bad. as Red_on_Silver said where ever muslims live they are required by religion to repect the surroundings and obide by the rules of the country. muslims in the uk are able to pray in peace and all muslims will be gratefull for that.

you will get a small minority who i dont know how been brainwashed with all this "bullshit" which is 100% wrong. these people who do all this stuff shouldnt be even be called muslim because all the stuff they do is not what a muslim would do.

as a muslim im trying my best to get all these freaks or whatever out of society so each human bieng in the uk can have a peacful life.

[Rushback]

I have no moral authority or indeed any Islamic authority to murder innocent civilians. I am commanded by God to obey the law of the land in which I reside, unless it conflicts with my ability to practice my faith. In such a scenario, I have a right of civil disobedeince



Where would such a senario arise RoS, can you give an example :)

[Lerpwl Am Byth]

It just goes to show how religion can be twisted to suit one's own agenda. I respect one's right to have faith in whatever floats their boat, but organised religion is just bollocks.

[Red_on_Silver]

Where would such a senario arise RoS, can you give an example :)

In France, for example, where girls are not allowed to have head covering in schools. Same goes for Turkey, where head covering is not allowed in public building (my understanding, I could be wrong). Throughout the communist era in the USSR and China.

[Ducatiboy749]

It all seems media driven to me and I think part of the problem starts when we see the ruckus being created in Pakistan and other such Muslim dominated countries, when things don't go quite as the locals would like.

I have a question;

What wouldd happen if Bob Smith from Liverpool, couldn't quite understand the actions of Allah and started burning an effigy of him in the street, in front of the Sky TV cameras, specifically for the purpose of being shown on live television in Pakistan?

Well I think we both know the answer to that - there would be a massive outcry, quite probably followed by some kind of holy war.

I think the media have a responsibility which they are blatantly not upholding.

[Ducatiboy749]

Headline currently as "Breaking News" on Sky......

"The doctor arrested in Australia in connection with the terror attacks in Scotland and London had a one-way air ticket to Pakistan, Sky News has learned."

What difference does that make and what exactly makes it breaking news?....that he was headed to Pakistan?:confused:

[Red_on_Silver]

I think the media have a responsibility which they are blatantly not upholding.

I think you are right, there is a lot of 'hysteria', for the want of a better word, from the media. They may well be responsible for stoking up a lot of tensions and possibly conflict within the community. However, my point is really that whatever the provocation, there is no justification for murder.

If we want to apportion blame, we can say point to the USA historic attitude to Israel/ Palestine, the UK/US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan etc. etc etc. I can even understand the frustration felt by people when they feel that there is nothing they can do. I can understand people's feeling of anger when they see the murder of their fellow Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. We have a responsibility to ensure that the anger felt by these disenfranchised people are channeled into taking positive action to improve things; murdering innocents is not an option.

It is the responsibility of us, those that truly abhors the actions of these mindless criminals, to isolate these people. It is also our resposibility, whether we are Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Budhists, people of other faiths or people of no faith at all, to 'educate' these people; we must address the concerns, in order that people who are sincere and intelligent, but have been led astray, can return to fighting their cause in a peaceful manner.

Our responsibility must also extend to opposing the action of our government, that of the USA and of Israel which is consider inhuman, immoral and often evil. We are a democratic society, we must exercise our 'powers'. The 1,000,000 march against the Iraq war was commendable; but since then nothing. A government will only listen to it's people if we keep up the pressure.

We have a responsibility to oppose those nations that calls itself Muslim nations but practices neither a secular form of freedom or an Islamic one. Don't let people fool you into thinking that Iran, Saudi Arabia and the like are Islamic states, they are not. Buth here is the crux, I do not beleive that these countries have legitimate governments, but I cannot ever condone the violent overthrow of these governments. A change will come from the people, for the people. A transition will take place, that will be peaceful and will be welcomed by the majority. A change by force is replacing one form of tyranny with another.

Don't let your neighbour become a stranger. Whether you are a Muslim, Christians, Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Budhists, person of other faiths or a person of no faith at all, talk to your neighbour, whoever they may be. Ask them of their daily lives, ask them of their troubles, ask them of their happiness. Share with them and let them share with you.

A good example of co-existance is the early Muslim settlers, who sought and were afforded sanctuary by the Christian King of Abyssinia (present day Ethiopia); free from persecution and the freedom to practice their religion.

[CODE RED]

Top posts Red on Silver. I too am a Muslim and support everything you say.

I hope the minority extreme right wingers on and off the forum don't rub their hands with glee and turn this thread (and society in generally) into a devisive, hate-filled cess pool of inhumanity. Thats uk extremeists and this death cult using religion as a means of causing anarchy to help ease their disease of hate.

My avatar, Mahatma Gandhi, who many British people are familiar with as a symbol of peace, was a great admirer of Islam. I am currently reading his autobiography.

[Red_on_Silver]

I came across this book and note from the publishers which I thought was very relevant to this discussion.

link: http://www.islamicity.com/m/bazar/action.lasso.asp?-db=Bazaar&-lay=Product&-format=detail.asp&-error=error.asp&-op=cn&Part_no=03904-5466&-find

Unholy War : Terror in the Name of Islam (John L. Esposito)

One of the world's leading authorities on the Islamic world answers the many troubling questions raised in the wake of the September 11 attack

The devastating September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon left us stunned, angry, and uncomprehending. As it became clear that these horrifying acts had been committed in the name of Islam, we struggled to understand how religion could be used to justify the slaughter of innocents. The media, the government, and ordinary citizens alike sought answers to questions about Islam and its adherents. Who are the Muslim extremists who perpetrate such deeds? Why do they hate us? What do they hope to achieve? Does Islam really teach that such terrorists are holy warriors who will be rewarded with everlasting bliss? In this level-headed and authoritative book, John L. Esposito, one of the world's most respected scholars of political Islam, provides answers to these and many other questions that have arisen in the wake of the attacks. He clearly and carefully explains the teachings of Islam--the Quran, the example of the Prophet, Islamic law--about jihad or holy war, the use of violence, and terrorism. He chronicles the rise of extremist groups and examines their frightening worldview and tactics. Anti-Americanism (and anti-Europeanism), he shows, is a broad-based phenomenon that cuts across Arab and Muslim societies. It is not just driven by religious zealotry, but by frustration and anger at U.S. policy. Moreover, many Muslims are repelled by aspects of Western culture, and alarmed at its impact around the world. It is vital to understand, however, that the vast majority of Muslims are appalled by the acts of violence committed in the name of their faith. It is essential that we distinguish between the religion of Islam and the actions of extremists like Osaka bin Laden who hijack Islamic discourse and belief to justify their acts of terrorism.

How can we continue the fight against terrorism without precipitating a global clash of cultures? This is perhaps the most important question we face in this time of crisis. The terrorists behind the September 11 attacks must be brought to justice, their cells eradicated, and their bases destroyed. But this war against terror must not be used to justify erosion of important values at home, or become a green light to authoritarian regimes in the Muslim world to repress non-violent opposition. Only by understanding and addressing the issues that breed hatred and radicalism, argues Esposito, can we defuse the conflicts that will otherwise continue to confront future generations.

This brief, clear-sighted and accessibly written book reflects twenty years of study, reflection, and experience on the part of a scholar who is equally respected in the West and in the Muslim world. It will prove to be the best single guide to these urgent questions that have suddenly forced themselves on the attention of the entire world.

"Could not come at a more timely moment.... A model of direct, jargon-free prose that takes its readers on a tour d' horizon of the history of Islamic thought about the West, modernity and jihad. Esposito's book will save readers the effort of reading a shelf of books that address the same issues in a less succinct manner."--Peter L. Bergen, Washington Post Book World

"An invaluable book. Erudite, compelling and passionate, Unholy War is essential reading at this crisis of world history, and provides a lucid introduction to truths which must now become common knowledge."--Karen Armstrong, author of Islam: A Short History

"Among the plethora of books published after the cataclysm of 9/11, Unholy War is one of the most insightful and informative in explicating the religious and political roots of the terrorism threat confronting the US."--Choice

"Esposito has condensed the wealth of knowledge of the Islamic world evinced in his Oxford Illustrated History of Islam, producing a book that can admirably serve as an extremely valuable primer in this new world order in which communists have been replaced by terrorists as the planet's resident evil."--Booklist

"A welcome antidote against simplistic attitudes toward Islam.... Those who want a guide to the origins of the current clash of civilizations are unlikely to find a better book."--Publishers Weekly

John L. Esposito is University Professor of Religion and International Affairs and Founding Director of the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, Walsh School of Foreign Service, Georgetown University. A past president of the Middle East Studies Association, he is Editor-in-Chief of the four-volume Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern Islamic World, Editor of The Oxford Illustrated History of Islam, and the author of numerous books, including Islam: The Straight Path and The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality? His newest books include What Everyone Needs to Know About Islam and The Oxford Dictionary of Islam. He lives in Washington, D.C.

[Ducatiboy749]

Top posts Red on Silver. I too am a Muslim and support everything you say.

I hope the minority extreme right wingers on and off the forum don't rub their hands with glee and turn this thread (and society in generally) into a devisive, hate-filled cess pool of inhumanity. Thats uk extremeists and this death cult using religion as a means of causing anarchy to help ease their disease of hate.
My avatar, Mahatma Gandhi, who many British people are familiar with as a symbol of peace, was a great admirer of Islam. I am currently reading his autobiography.

:confused:

[CODE RED]

:confused:

Sorry ducati. What I meant to say is there are a few forumites on here that hardly appear on the football forum but then suddenly rear their heads when there is a political debate involving the British Isles. That is so they can get their right wing views across. One or two have been banned, other haven't. I know we've got an off topic section, but this is a football forum at the end of the day.

The death cult = the "terrorists" that the media , gov and police are talking about. They're a little different/more than that IMHO.

USA and Israel are state terrorists by the way.

All the above have played their dirty part in trying to devide us, it is up to us to not let them manipulate us.

[captainred]

In France, for example, where girls are not allowed to have head covering in schools. Same goes for Turkey, where head covering is not allowed in public building (my understanding, I could be wrong). Throughout the communist era in the USSR and China.
What happens though if your Civil Disobedience led to an innocent person dying?
I have known a few Muslims and from my point of view, they are the most caring people I know!
I hope this doesn't come across in a bad way, but if you really are strong in your muslim faith, why live in a non muslim based country, like France!?
Religon, causes no end of problems and the latest fact mentioned on TV about the most popular boys name is/going to be Mohammed, must get up some people's noses. It doesn't bother me, but it must do with some people as why was it mentioned?
My wife used to have to go to a part of Leicester ocassionally for work and when she was there she was told not to turn the wrong way out of the building, as you may not survive the journey!! If she did, she had to make sure she didn't stop and make sure she locked her car doors. The reason you ask? One of the ways was predominately muslim. She did once and felt very uneasy, like all the eyes were on her! Like I said previously, we have/have had great muslim friends, so this was very upsetting. How can we stop this in future? Can we really integrate properly?

[Ducatiboy749]

Sorry ducati. What I meant to say is there are a few forumites on here that hardly appear on the football forum but then suddenly rear their heads when there is a political debate involving the British Isles. That is so they can get their right wing views across. One or two have been banned, other haven't. I know we've got an off topic section, but this is a football forum at the end of the day.

The death cult = the "terrorists" that the media , gov and police are talking about. They're a little different/more than that IMHO.

USA and Israel are state terrorists by the way.

All the above have played their dirty part in trying to devide us, it is up to us to not let them manipulate us.

Gotcha and agree, we all need to play our part.:)

[jeeta]

Interesting read, I am a sikh and have a turban and beard, been born and bred in this country as they say, actually after travelling a majority of the world, don't think there is a better place to live, home is where the heart is.

The problem that I have with this, is the media, they show images of osama bin laden, the idiot has a beard and turban, so who get's the majority of the back lash ? the sikhs, I'm not saying that everyone is that ignorant but the problem is there, you can understand why many cannot tell the differnce.

Though in saying that, I don't think it's acceptable that religion is linked to terrorism, due to the simple notion that a relgious person couldn't comprehend such an act, due to the sheer nature of any religion, seeing mankind as one, god in all etc. Why the media don't just class this type of human waste as terrorist's I don't know.

This is where I tend to agree with the ID Card scheme, at least this way we'll know who is who, if people regardless of colour, creed, religion do not wish to live in this country peacefully then they should be deported. The real problem is that we have becom a soft target, we allow people to preach hate and then we house them ahead of those who pay their taxes and abide by the law.

[captainred]

Interesting read, I am a sikh and have a turban and beard, been born and bred in this country as they say, actually after travelling a majority of the world, don't think there is a better place to live, home is where the heart is.

The problem that I have with this, is the media, they show images of osama bin laden, the idiot has a beard and turban, so who get's the majority of the back lash ? the sikhs, I'm not saying that everyone is that ignorant but the problem is there, you can understand why many cannot tell the differnce.

Though in saying that, I don't think it's acceptable that religion is linked to terrorism, due to the simple notion that a relgious person couldn't comprehend such an act, due to the sheer nature of any religion, seeing mankind as one, god in all etc. Why the media don't just class this type of human waste as terrorist's I don't know.

This is where I tend to agree with the ID Card scheme, at least this way we'll know who is who, if people regardless of colour, creed, religion do not wish to live in this country peacefully then they should be deported. The real problem is that we have becom a soft target, we allow people to preach hate and then we house them ahead of those who pay their taxes and abide by the law.

I don't fully agree with this! Think how we have taken Monty Panesar into our hearts! He is a sikh, isn't he? I think he is great, but I don't automatically think Osama Bin Laden, far from it! Anyway he's dead isn't he?

As to the ID cards, it might help if a) it was cheaper, b) everyone HAD to have one and c) we had control as to what was on it. I would also be more concerned about ID theft than I am now!

[Red_on_Silver]

What happens though if your Civil Disobedience led to an innocent person dying?

The very nature of civil disobedience is that it is non-violent. You refuse to accept a law that infringes your rights, when your exercising of your right does not harm others.

I hope this doesn't come across in a bad way, but if you really are strong in your muslim faith, why live in a non muslim based country, like France!?

If you read some of my earliers posts, you will see your conviction of your faith is a great motivator in having peaceful co-existance with your neighbours. See my example of the early Muslims living under the protection of the Christian Abyssian King. In fact the King cut of lucrative trade ties with the Arab Quraish in order to protect the Muslims and afford them a home. In any case, I am British, my children are British/English, why shouldn't I live in my home country if that is my desire?

Religon, causes no end of problems and the latest fact mentioned on TV about the most popular boys name is/going to be Mohammed, must get up some people's noses. It doesn't bother me, but it must do with some people as why was it mentioned?

Religion is not the problem, it is men who claim that their actions are driven by religion. It is human nature to find differences between us and use that to wage war and coflict. If it isn't religion then it is ethnicity or or region or caste or creed or class or a multitude of other differences we have. Let us celebrate what is common between us and not highlight the differences; respect each other. The media is a culprit, but is can only divide us if we allow it to divide us.

My wife used to have to go to a part of Leicester ocassionally for work and when she was there she was told not to turn the wrong way out of the building, as you may not survive the journey!! If she did, she had to make sure she didn't stop and make sure she locked her car doors. The reason you ask? One of the ways was predominately muslim. She did once and felt very uneasy, like all the eyes were on her! Like I said previously, we have/have had great muslim friends, so this was very upsetting. How can we stop this in future? Can we really integrate properly?

These sort of situation makes me very sad. I have friends who are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs and many many who are of no faith, I would hope that each and everyone of them feels safe in my company. This artificial division is caused by politicians and those with vested interests that have divided us; the ghettoisation of communities is to blame.

People don't understand the concept of integration. Integration does not mean assimilation; I do not have to become like you to respect you or to like you. As a human being I have to have contact with you, I should share common courtesies with you, I should respect you and maybe grow to like you as a person. I do not have to go to the pub with, but I can invite you to my home for a meal; I do not have to go to a club with you, but I can invite you to my Eid party. These are the things that will bind us. There is a great philosophy in the Noble Quran which says simply Let Us Find Common Ground

The true human family can happily co-exist; bad the sad truth is that there will be people who will wish always to divide us. We must be strong enough to resist the forces of separation and link ours arms in bonds of brotherhood.

[jeeta]

I did say not everyone and yes I agree, that the great nation we are, we do accept those from different backgrounds and religion a lot better than other nations, ironically I was in New York a couple of weeks ago and I honestly felt as though everyone was staring at me, well I saw them, but I smiled and most of the time they smiled back, didn't suffer any racism at all there but found it strange that in a place where there a lot of the cabbies from Indian origin their they found it strange that me and wife were walking around there, sight seeing.

Yes monty and mahmood for the england cricket team are doing well in showing the better aspect's of religion and integration in the UK, I do remember being a child and enjoying the diversity there was in all the school's I atteneded, I personally don't think the future is "all faith school's" be it of any religion. What happen's when you go into society and work, you are at a loss when it come's to communication.

Even now I see younger children not being able to relate to other communities and I always encourage them to try, talk to you neighbours, respect them and treat them like your own family. In this way the harmony will be greater and the understanding of differences will become smaller and smaller, I'll never forget the time's when we would take of food for our neighbours and they would give us easter eggs and other things even though they never like my belove LFC, he was an Aresenal supporter

[CODE RED]

Being a UK Indian Muslim really ought to open ones mind to a rich diet of many cultures. I have a comprehension and appreciation of Hinduism, Sikhism, Chritianity and general British culture whilst not having to diminsh my own primary identity as a Muslim. In essence, being a UK Muslim should opens one mind like it has for me (without compromising my beliefs) rather than turn me into a semi-psychopath like this death cult. It is possible for people to fundamentally disagree with eachother but still live beside eachother and even be friends.

[RedRich]

Y'know, I find this thread very uplifting and refreshing. I know that sounds strange bearing in mind the title but it's nice to hear and learn something in relation to this subject that isn't cynical, sinister or indeed terrifying.

I work amongst some people who basically believe whatever the tabloids tell them and it becomes quite draining sometimes. Its almost like they're waiting for some kind of 'holy war' to start even though they have no defined beliefs themselves. When these attacks happen they fuel these people's fires and it scares me just how precarious a position we as a people are in.

[Deba Kopite]

[QUOTE=Red_on_Silver;766218]... the Quran teaches us that taking the life of ONE innocent person is tantamount to the murder of the whole of humanity and that the saving of ONE life is equivalent to the saving of whole of humanity.

Two of the spanish victims in Yemen were neighbours, from a town close to mine. One of them, a professor, was a good friend of my former girlfriend. She's absolutely devastated, as many more people are with their dead relatives or friends, but she didn' t show any hate against muslims. We all know (or at least many of us do) what a couple of heartless or brainless fanatics can do, because we' ve suffered it in most of our countries, but we also know that what they really want is to set muslims at odds with christians, jews or atheists in the name of the God of vengeance. We' re all innocent victims, and there were muslims too amongst the deads. Our governments are the real culprits of all these atrocities. But they' re all comfortably sitting in front of each other moving a chessboard that they can' t even understand. If our Gods really exist, I just hope they' ll judge and sentence them some day!

Good post ROS, hope that human beings will learn some day what their sacred books really wanted to teach them...

[captainred]

RoS, sorry to pull this thread back up, but what do you think of this threat from Al Qaeda, regarding Salmon Rushdie? Should he have ever been knighted? I don't know much about it to comment, but believe more people do more good in the world and don't even get a mention!!
Again we are made to suffer for our government's incompetence!!

[Ducatiboy749]

RoS, sorry to pull this thread back up, but what do you think of this threat Should he have ever been knightefrom Al Qaeda, regarding Salmon Rushdie?d? I don't know much about it to comment, but believe more people do more good in the world and don't even get a mention!!
Again we are made to suffer for our government's incompetence!!

What's it got to do with those cunts who we decide to honour?

[captainred]

What's it got to do with those cunts who we decide to honour?

I hear what you are saying, but why make matters worse, by honouring someone, who has already upset so many muslims in the world!! Come on, that has got to get a negative response from terrorists!!

[Ducatiboy749]

I hear what you are saying, but why make matters worse, by honouring someone, who has already upset so many muslims in the world!! Come on, that has got to get a negative response from terrorists!!

In that case we should honour as many as we can.

For the record, I couldn't give a rats arse whether we honour Rushdie or not. Personally I think we (the taxpayer) did enough protecting him for all those years he was in hiding.

Fact is though, if it wasn't for gobshites like this cocksucker who's threating people, he wouldn't have needed protecting in the first place.

Cowardly cunt. Come over here to Europe (specifically Amsterdam;) ) and start threating people son.....let's see how big you are then.

[The Prince]

Well, we were harsdly on thier Christmas card lists as it were but I see your point. Is it a statement of the freedom that GWB keeps going on about (that being the freedom where he disenfranchised a load of black voters to win his first election) or a deliberate taunt?

[Ducatiboy749]

Well, we were harsdly on thier Christmas card lists as it were but I see your point. Is it a statement of the freedom that GWB keeps going on about (that being the freedom where he disenfranchised a load of black voters to win his first election) or a deliberate taunt?

The question shouldn't even need to be asked.

[captainred]

I also hear that a 51 year old woman has married Bin Laden's young son after a holiday romance and so is asking for a visa for him to come to this country!!! What the h**l is going on??:eek:

[CODE RED]

I also hear that a 51 year old woman has married Bin Laden's young son after a holiday romance and so is asking for a visa for him to come to this country!!! What the h**l is going on??:eek:

Do you know how many sons Bin Laden has? Many of them are more westernised than bangers and mash!

[CODE RED]

What's it got to do with those cunts who we decide to honour?

Agreed , but what's this "we" business when it comes to the knighthoods. Do you agree with all knighthoods that are given out (eg. David Beckscum, The Bashes winning England side?)

[Ducatiboy749]

Agreed , but what's this "we" business when it comes to the knighthoods. Do you agree with all knighthoods that are given out (eg. David Beckscum, The Bashes winning England side?)

Yes, I think its a decent tradition that we reward people who have served the country well.

I am not going to get into an arguement as to the merits of what constitutes "well" though.;)

[CODE RED]

Yes, I think its a decent tradition that we reward people who have served the country well.

I am not going to get into an arguement as to the merits of what constitutes "well" though.;)

Order of the British Empire seems somewhat outdated and arrogant though. I men you don't have order of the Roman, Ottaman or even Mongol Empires do you?

[Ducatiboy749]

Order of the British Empire seems somewhat outdated and arrogant though. I men you don't have order of the Roman, Ottaman or even Mongol Empires do you?

Depends if you take offense with the title of a medal I suppose.

Personally they could call it the McDonalds award for serving your country. The sentiment means the same to me.

[CODE RED]

Depends if you take offense with the title of a medal I suppose.

Personally they could call it the McDonalds award for serving your country. The sentiment means the same to me.

I suppose this is all a seperate debate. However, the main point is the "award" has been de-valued for many because of the ridiculous choices that are made as to who is to recieve "such an accolade"!

[Ducatiboy749]

I suppose this is all a seperate debate. However, the main point is the "award" has been de-valued for many because of the ridiculous choices that are made as to who is to recieve "such an accolade"!

I agree to an extent but who has the right to say that one is more desrving than the other.

I know the England cricket team got a lot of stick for getting their awards but as far as I'm concerned it was fine. They gave a lot of people, a lot of enjoyment and bought a little bit of belief and self-respect back to the England cricket team. Nothing wrong with that.

Now that's not saying that everyone should agree with that decision or that they are more or less deserving than Doris Smith who has wiped old people arses' for a living for the last 30 years. It's just a recognition of their achievements and for what they've also given others in our society....however big or small that contribution.

I remember my local milkman (Mick) was given an OBE when I was a kid and he was like a hero to a lot of people. Have you ever heard of him?

[simon pieman]

I agree to an extent but who has the right to say that one is more desrving than the other.

I know the England cricket team got a lot of stick for getting their awards but as far as I'm concerned it was fine. They gave a lot of people, a lot of enjoyment and bought a little bit of belief and self-respect back to the England cricket team. Nothing wrong with that.
Now that's not saying that everyone should agree with that decision or that they are more or less deserving than Doris Smith who has wiped old people arses' for a living for the last 30 years. It's just a recognition of their achievements and for what they've also given others in our society....however big or small that contribution.

I remember my local milkman (Mick) was given an OBE when I was a kid and he was like a hero to a lot of people. Have you ever heard of him?

Going slightly off topic now but will the England cricket team give them back after the embarrasing and lacklustre performances over the winter?

[Ducatiboy749]

Going slightly off topic now but will the England cricket team give them back after the embarrasing and lacklustre performances over the winter?

Why should they? They earnt them.

Would you give your Christmas bonus back to your employers from last year if they decided you hadn't worked hard enough this year?

Would a lad who fought in the Falklands give his medal back because he wasn't in action during the 90's?

I think they get their come-uppance if you like off the English gutter press if they don't perform to the required standards don't you?

Giving a medal back wouldn't prove/amend anything.

(P.S. I guess your post was a little tongue-in-cheek anyhow....)

[simon pieman]

Why should they? They earnt them.

Would you give your Christmas bonus back to your employers from last year if they decided you hadn't worked hard enough this year?

Would a lad who fought in the Falklands give his medal back because he wasn't in action during the 90's?

I think they get their come-uppance if you like off the English gutter press if they don't perform to the required standards don't you?

Giving a medal back wouldn't prove/amend anything.

(P.S. I guess your post was a little tongue-in-cheek anyhow....)

For the record I dont get xmas bonuses but im sure as in the majority of cases if you dont perform your out on your ear.
and yes it was tongue in cheek.

[Red_on_Silver]

RoS, sorry to pull this thread back up, but what do you think of this threat from Al Qaeda, regarding Salmon Rushdie? Should he have ever been knighted? I don't know much about it to comment, but believe more people do more good in the world and don't even get a mention!!
Again we are made to suffer for our government's incompetence!!

Captainred, to honour Salman Rushdie was to say the least provocative. To be honest, he isn't that great a writer, having read most of his stuff and you'd hardly call what he has done to be a lifetime achievement.

You have got to ask who was the bright spark that processed his nomination for a honour and that they thought he was deserving of it.

Whatever your views on his freedom of speech and rights, Salman Rushdie is as dangerous as Nick Griffin. To honour him in this way is tantamount to saying 'we don't care what a large percentage of the British populations feels, we don't care about your sensitivities', it's almost like a slap in the face.

It's not just an insult to Muslims, but to all right thinking people that Salman Rushdie should have been honoured in this way.

As to whether Al-Qaeda have a right to retaliate, no they don't. They represent nobody, least of all a Muslim Nation. I have made this argument before, there is no Islamic state in the World, therefore no-one has a right to wage war in the name of Islam. But for arguments sake, let us say Iran or Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state, they can declare war, if they wish. If they do declare a war in the cause of defending Islam, they must abide by the rules of war laid down in Islam. This does not include suicide bombings, this does not include taking of innocent lives.

If Al-Qaeda want to wage war, then let them wage it on the basis of Islamic law, after all they claim to represent Islam and Muslims.

For those that say, outsiders should not have a say in who we honour, I say we have to have a global outlook and have a sense of diplomatic responsibility. If a rabid anti-Westerner was honoured by a Muslim state, there would be uproar throughout the Western world.

[redrule]

Poverty and fundamentalism what ever faith it is, is the combination that is deadly.

I would not like to see any women in Sweden being sent back a thousand years beacuse for example that somebody read the old testament or the Quran in a way that ment they were lesser than a man.


It is like democracy is just a thing one calls for when one needs it´s benefits and it´s shelter and not when one is in the position of taking something by force.

All things that has gotten better for them that were women , children , poor or with disabilities or for some reason weak in society since the dawning of the industrial revolution in the west.

Would they have gotten it better from religion alone ?

Nope , help from the individual religious person or some parts of the church maybe, but the leading priests of some churches has been helping the ruling classes to keep people were they were.

Nope religion is not the glue to keep us all together

More important is common sense , reason and and the understanding that this earth dont provide everything that we need unless we share in a way that gives everybody a chanse of a decent life.

I am not against religion it is a comfort when life hits us in a cruel way

But I am not for it as govering me when my judgement tells me differently

This is not ment to insult anybody of any faith

[Red_on_Silver]

Poverty and fundamentalism what ever faith it is, is the combination that is deadly.

I would not like to see any women in Sweden being sent back a thousand years beacuse for example that somebody read the old testament or the Quran in a way that ment they were lesser than a man.


It is like democracy is just a thing one calls for when one needs it´s benefits and it´s shelter and not when one is in the position of taking something by force.

All things that has gotten better for them that were women , children , poor or with disabilities or for some reason weak in society since the dawning of the industrial revolution in the west.

Would they have gotten it better from religion alone ?

Nope , help from the individual religious person or some parts of the church maybe, but the leading priests of some churches has been helping the ruling classes to keep people were they were.

Nope religion is not the glue to keep us all together

More important is common sense , reason and and the understanding that this earth dont provide everything that we need unless we share in a way that gives everybody a chanse of a decent life.

I am not against religion it is a comfort when life hits us in a cruel way

But I am not for it as govering me when my judgement tells me differently

This is not ment to insult anybody of any faith

First of all, if you believe in a God, you need to apply his laws. If you don't that another matter. But for the moment let's assume that Christians in general believe in a God, since they have no way of direct two-way communication, they must rely on messages that have been sent down to them. In this case through various Prophets until Jesus. If God is the supreme being and his laws must be obeyed, then you must follow all that is laid down. According to Christians, the Bible represents God's will. You cannot chose bits of it and follow that and ignore others. That is a belief of convenience; you either take it all or leave it all.

In the case of Muslims, the Quran is the literal word of God. In it is the message that has been passed through all the other Prophets. It is a first person (God) narrative; it is also a complete set of instructions on how Muslims must conduct themself in everyday life. The Quran, revealed some 1500 years ago, has not changed one single letter in this time. Now again if a Muslim believes, he must take it all or leave it all; there is no middle ground.

Now to clear up some misconceptions. 1500 years ago, the Quran gave Women equal rights, it states clearly Men and Women are created equal. They are different but equal, with different roles to Men but nonetheless equal. Until the 19th Century women were considered chattel in European nations, with no right of say in anything, never mind democracy. 6th Century Muslim women had powers to run their own affairs and be involved in the decision making of state. Which woman had a right to own property in Europe in the 6th century? the Prophet's Muhammad's wife (long before she was his wife) was a successful businesswoman, trading with her neighbouring nations. The Quran provides clear commandment that women have a right over their own wealth and property, even her husband has no right over it; she is given inheritance rights, as a daughter, as wife and as a mother.

The Quran places great value in our mothers, sisters and wives. In fact, a child is commanded in the Quran to pay great respect to his/her parents, but the mother is entitled to three times more respect than the father.

Without having an understanding of what religion offers us, we should not be so easy to critical of it. It is man who has destroyed the beautiful message by distorting this message. The fact certain muslim men act in a particular way should not give you the impression that this is Islam; more often than not it is not, it is a cultural throwback.

[CODE RED]

First of all, if you believe in a God, you need to apply his laws. If you don't that another matter. But for the moment let's assume that Christians in general believe in a God, since they have no way of direct two-way communication, they must rely on messages that have been sent down to them. In this case through various Prophets until Jesus. If God is the supreme being and his laws must be obeyed, then you must follow all that is laid down. According to Christians, the Bible represents God's will. You cannot chose bits of it and follow that and ignore others. That is a belief of convenience; you either take it all or leave it all.

In the case of Muslims, the Quran is the literal word of God. In it is the message that has been passed through all the other Prophets. It is a first person (God) narrative; it is also a complete set of instructions on how Muslims must conduct themself in everyday life. The Quran, revealed some 1500 years ago, has not changed one single letter in this time. Now again if a Muslim believes, he must take it all or leave it all; there is no middle ground.

Now to clear up some misconceptions. 1500 years ago, the Quran gave Women equal rights, it states clearly Men and Women are created equal. They are different but equal, with different roles to Men but nonetheless equal. Until the 19th Century women were considered chattel in European nations, with no right of say in anything, never mind democracy. 6th Century Muslim women had powers to run their own affairs and be involved in the decision making of state. Which woman had a right to own property in Europe in the 6th century? the Prophet's Muhammad's wife (long before she was his wife) was a successful businesswoman, trading with her neighbouring nations. The Quran provides clear commandment that women have a right over their own wealth and property, even her husband has no right over it; she is given inheritance rights, as a daughter, as wife and as a mother.

The Quran places great value in our mothers, sisters and wives. In fact, a child is commanded in the Quran to pay great respect to his/her parents, but the mother is entitled to three times more respect than the father.

Without having an understanding of what religion offers us, we should not be so easy to critical of it. It is man who has destroyed the beautiful message by distorting this message. The fact certain muslim men act in a particular way should not give you the impression that this is Islam; more often than not it is not, it is a cultural throwback.


Great post (all of it).