Rafa: The Man?

[Real Deep]

I've noticed an increase lately, in the frequency of disparaging comments aimed at Rafa. You can almost hear the knives being sharpened. There isn't a manager that exists that's above criticism, but I've got to say, I think that some of the criticism he's been getting lately has been unfair.

He gets criticised for playing certain formations in games where we don't get a result, but the numerous games that we did win, using the same formation, are conveniently ignored. He gets criticised for not having a 'plan B' one minute, and then gets criticised for changing the tactics and formation too much the next.

He might not always get it right, but he's earned a reputation as one of the world's best coaches for a reason - he's world-class. We've got ourselves a world-class coach, who has the kind of demeanour that we all want in a Liverpool manager. They don't grow on trees...

I think with the squad he's got, he's achieving (up to now) what anyone's got a right to expect. I know that this squad was pretty much built by him, but it's not quite finished yet; the acid tests are going to come in the next couple of years.

I might be on my own here, but if I had my way, providing there isn't a very obvious backward trend for a couple of seasons, I'd stick with him whether or not he manages to find those magic signings that can turn us into title-winners; getting rid at that stage for failing to win the title would be like getting rid of one of your best players - it's not the answer. The last thing we need is yet another 'revolution'...

Arsenal, United and Chelsea have all got their world-class managers; and we've got ours in my opinion.

[AllezLesRouges]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we get rid of him but people have a right to be critical especially after such woeful perfomances as Man U, Arsenal, Everton this season.

[tarndog]

I agree entirely. Nearly all successful clubs stick with their manager. Those that chop and change never settle on a team or rythm. Look at Real madrid's success lately when they have changed managers annually. They have won nothing.

[Real Deep]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we get rid of him but people have a right to be critical especially after such woeful perfomances as Man U, Arsenal, Everton this season.

Of course people have a right to be critical mate, that's not what I'm saying. It doesn't mean that every bit of criticism will be fair though, just because we've been poor at times.

[The Prince]

I'd never say get rid but I'm beginning to find certain decision a bit odd.

[Real Deep]

I'd never say get rid but I'm beginning to find certain decision a bit odd.

Come on then Karl, let's have a heated debate!;)

[Don Pedro]

It is true that most managerial changes leave a club in as good as, or a worse position. It is very, very, rare that a change is for the better.

That means that we'd have to being A LOT worse than we are for anyone to want Rafa out. I'd like our football to be more compelling - like everyone else, I'd love to see the kind of football that Valencia played against us with Rafa in charge.

But it'd be disastrous if we got rid - or, what is more likely, Real make him an offer he can't refuse, after ditching Capello in the summer.

[Big Chief]

We've got ourselves a world-class coach

It is this oft repeated nugget which is begining to rankle with me most RD.

World class coach?

- Sissoko still can't pass
- Crouch still can't head the ball
- The tactic for free kicks appears to consistently be, nudge it to Risse/Gerrard and let them twat it
- That stupid fucking corner that gets played outside the box for Riise to volley it
- The short corners where the ball never makes it into the box

What exactly is going on at Melwood? Because while I'm sure that you can find exceptions to all the above (Gerrard's curling free kick against Everton for example) these things are in my opinion so often the rule that they only go to show that anything but world class coaching is going on.

He gets criticised for playing certain formations in games where we don't get a result, but the numerous games that we did win, using the same formation, are conveniently ignored.

I think this is probably true but only when he stops insulting my intelligence in those we don't win (Kuyt is not a left winger for fuck's sake, Crouch only getting five minutes at Newcastle etc) will I feel a little more comfortable in letting them go. I have started to feel like he does these things to prove he knows what he's doing, while managing to actually prove anything but. A sort of, "Look, I know more than you do about this okay"?

My posts have been negative recently because they are a reflection on what has been a fucking dreadfully, and often painfully, disappointing season to this point. None of them mean I want him to go or anything ridiculous like that but his faults are becoming failings.

And a manager who doesn't seem willing to put the time in to teach Crouch to head a ball properly doesn't strike me as a manager who is about to learn from his mistakes. Because he won't see them as such.

[vin]

It is this oft repeated nugget which is begining to rankle with me most RD.

World class coach?

- Sissoko still can't pass
- Crouch still can't head the ball
- The tactic for free kicks appears to consistently be, nudge it to Risse/Gerrard and let them twat it
- That stupid fucking corner that gets played outside the box for Riise to volley it
- The short corners where the ball never makes it into the box


I don't want to get rid of Benitez, but a point that always comes back when I argue with non-LFC fans is that Rafa's Valencia was built by another coach/manager. It was his (Rafas) style of play BUT with a group of players he did not sign or originally coach. The season where Valencia overhauled Real Madrid was of course mainly due to their consistency over the last 12 games or so, but also partly due to Madrids unbelievable capitualtion.

I have been disappointed with our style of football, its not as bad as Houlliers - "counter attack" style but there hasn't been the flair or imagination in the play that we would expect, to be fair we have shown it in some games or in patches. I think this stems from buying players who are bought in "to do a job." We chased Stelios for months because he was a "filler" player available on the cheap. The signing of Sissoko was a strange one, press reports and Rafa's quotes around the time were along the lines of "We didn't know he was available....." So how the hell did Everton????

To be honest, I didn't expect us to challenge at the beginning of the season anyway, so the season is living upto to my mediocre expectations.

[Real Deep]

It is this oft repeated nugget which is begining to rankle with me most RD.

World class coach?

- Sissoko still can't pass
- Crouch still can't head the ball
- The tactic for free kicks appears to consistently be, nudge it to Risse/Gerrard and let them twat it
- That stupid fucking corner that gets played outside the box for Riise to volley it
- The short corners where the ball never makes it into the box

What exactly is going on at Melwood? Because while I'm sure that you can find exceptions to all the above (Gerrard's curling free kick against Everton for example) these things are in my opinion so often the rule that they only go to show that anything but world class coaching is going on.

With respect mate, he's not a coach at a kid's summer camp. By the time players have become established in the first-team, they'll have pretty much gone through all the processes to try and develop their individual techniques, and will be working on more team-orientated sessions. Yeah, they'll have practice sessions to try and sharpen up in certain areas, but the development of a footballer at this stage of their career will largely be down to the accumulation of experience.

You're right about Sissoko not being able to pass, but I bet if you saw him in training he'd technically be able to put the ball anywhere he wanted. There's more to passing than the simple technique of being able to kick the ball right; it's also about having good vision, and being able to choose the right option more often than not. At Sissoko's age, it's very unlikely that you could teach him that; he can improve on it, but I doubt he'll ever be a good passer. He's a fantastic athlete though, and that's what Rafa tries to utilise.

Players are good at different things and it's Rafa's job to try and utilise the attributes of the players that he has at his disposal. The European Cup win was his finest moment, and compelling evidence of a world-class coach.

[Real Deep]

I think this is probably true but only when he stops insulting my intelligence in those we don't win (Kuyt is not a left winger for fuck's sake, Crouch only getting five minutes at Newcastle etc) will I feel a little more comfortable in letting them go. I have started to feel like he does these things to prove he knows what he's doing, while managing to actually prove anything but. A sort of, "Look, I know more than you do about this okay"?

I hate to break this to you mate, but it's fair to say that he does.;)

Kuyt's not a left winger, but he wasn't strictly being employed as one either. He's not the first coach to employ him on the left side of a front 3 - Van Basten done the same in the World Cup in at least one of the games.

[Real Deep]

I don't want to get rid of Benitez, but a point that always comes back when I argue with non-LFC fans is that Rafa's Valencia was built by another coach/manager. It was his (Rafas) style of play BUT with a group of players he did not sign or originally coach.

That's the one question mark that I've got. Can he assemble a title-winning squad?

I believe in his abilities if he has the right tools.

[dicko1969]

Why does Rafa fuck about the team so much.. to prove a point! Stubborness?

He insisted with Crouch... then finally after that Wigan game last year, he drops him consistently... He should have played Saturday against Newc... & he would have got 2 goals!

Rafa fucked about with Cisse putting him on the right, then on the left against WHU last season, and Cisse got a couple of goals... but Cisse is an out & out striker! not a right winger!

Brings back Robbie; but now plays him for 10mins if even!

But has his favs in morientes who had more than enough chances to prove himself a striker (unlike Cisse) and Luis Garcia.. who if it wasnt for some of his goals ; plays too many howlers.. control non existant; and passing woeful!

& brings in zenden, when everyone knows he's not good enough in the middle nor on the left...

and then selects that shocking team against the arse.. sometimes he does test the patients of the players & fans!

now its Kuyts turn, out of position & we expect him to score 20 goals!

how can you score 20 a season playing right back.. not even phil the neal could do that!

[Big Chief]

With respect mate, he's not a coach at a kid's summer camp.

I know what you're saying mate but I want to separate his obvious managerial talents out from what I see as a percieved lack of work on the basics.

For example, I just don't believe that getting the team to learn the zonal marking system is a much harder job than getting a tall bloke to learn to head the ball. Look at the way Wenger turned Adams into a ball player for example, a much harder job surely.

What I'm saying here is that the complicated things that Rafa so loves to use as proof of his coaching excellence are I believe taking place at the cost of some of the simpler things. I would expect a world class coach to be able to master these.

And I'm not sure that you're answering my acusation regarding the consistent shitness of our set pieces as another example of this.

And he may know more about football than me but to be fair I'm thick as pig shit, most people know more about most things than me. ;)

[dicko1969]

Big Chief.. I have to agree with you about the points you made earlier.. the annoying corners etc

We need to be a bit more creative and inventive than this sterile tactic.

We always seem to shoot from 50 yards.. no wonder why we have the most shots in the prem.

[Psychoticmonkey]

I hate all this rubbish about being played out of position. Players have to adapt and be versatile. You never know, it might benefit them hugely in the long run.

For example:

Ronaldo was a striker, but Ferguson played him at right midfield.

Henry was a winger, but Wenger played him upfront.

Sissoko was a striker, but Benitez played him at DM (at Valencia).

Carragher was a full back until Benitez put him at CB.

Even Mauritz Volz was a right back until this season, where he's been a revelation at centre midfield (slightly weird example).

The list is endless.

[dicko1969]

sure PM players do need to be able to play in different positions.. Gallas could be a very good example...

but sometimes this 'flexibility' doesnt do the player any good... his form or confidence... good example Cisse

However one of the reasons Holland are such a good footballing nation is that very flexible total football way.

Talking from personal experience... at my level.. I hated it when i was put RM when I knew and was a better striker than the guy who 'took' my place...

at the latter end of my illustrious career I ended up at RB!:D

[vin]

I hate all this rubbish about being played out of position. Players have to adapt and be versatile. You never know, it might benefit them hugely in the long run.

For example:

Ronaldo was a striker, but Ferguson played him at right midfield. He was always a winger

Henry was a winger, but Wenger played him upfront.Actually, he played both positions

Sissoko was a striker, but Benitez played him at DM (at Valencia).True

Carragher was a full back until Benitez put him at CB.Nope, he originally started as a central midfielder, then Houllier played him at CB (I think he won player of the season that year and then at LB and then RB

Even Mauritz Volz was a right back until this season, where he's been a revelation at centre midfield (slightly weird example).Fair enough

The list is endless.

See above

[Real Deep]

For example, I just don't believe that getting the team to learn the zonal marking system is a much harder job than getting a tall bloke to learn to head the ball. Look at the way Wenger turned Adams into a ball player for example, a much harder job surely.

A decent point about Adams, but I would say that he improved over time in the same way that Jamie Carragher has; he didn't suddenly turn into Franz Beckenbauer after a few coaching tips from Wenger.;)

What I'm saying here is that the complicated things that Rafa so loves to use as proof of his coaching excellence are I believe taking place at the cost of some of the simpler things. I would expect a world class coach to be able to master these.

I don't recognise the small-minded, point-scoring character that you're describing there. Are you sure you're not mistaking him for Houllier?

You're over-stating our problems in my opinion. Our 'problems' are largely down to a lack of genuinely world class attacking talent in the squad.

[FarmersBoy]

Generally, I believe in Rafa's tactical abilities. Having said that, he's come up with one or two absolute howlers in his time (Istanbul first half being the most obvious); to his credit though he's generally not dogmatic about sorting it out.

His record in the transfer market has been called into question. But, as was discussed on a thread a while ago, when you actually lay it out there, it's been OK. The only big flop was Morientes and no one could have predicted that. The rest, Josemi apart (and we got out of gaol there financially) - and possibly Pennant - have lived up to their price tag, I'd say, or exceeded it. The problem has been that their price tag hasn't been that large in the overall scheme of things. People criticise Kuyt; but who would have been preferred for that money? Defoe? Bent? I wouldn't say either of them is better than Kuyt. As for Crouch and Bellamy, a £7m forward will score £7M worth of goals a season - which I'd say is 10-15 league goals tops. If he does better than that then you've got a bargain.

Maybe Rafa's biggest mistake so far has been trying to solve too much in the squad at one go. Forego one of Bellamy and Kuyt and we could have had Alves rather than Pennant. I tend to think that would have improved us rather more. But that's hindsight for you.

[Big Chief]

Our 'problems' are largely down to a lack of genuinely world class attacking talent in the squad.

And whose fault is that? Crouch, Fowler, Bellamy, Kuyt, Gonzalez, Zenden, Pennant - who bought them?

To be honest I didn't want to get started on Rafa's dubious record in the transfer market so as not to move the focus away from my original point about coaching but lets be honest it's another big worry.

I don't recognise the small-minded, point-scoring character that you're describing there. Are you sure you're not mistaking him for Houllier?

I'm both scarred and scared. I'm trying to come up with reasons for some of the curious things he does. And making the very uncomfortable suggestion that it's because he choses to do the complex things to 'prove' he kows what he's doing is where I've ended up because I'm struggling for a sensible 'football' reason.

[Real Deep]

And whose fault is that? Crouch, Fowler, Bellamy, Kuyt, Gonzalez, Zenden, Pennant - who bought them?

To be honest I didn't want to get started on Rafa's dubious record in the transfer market so as not to move the focus away from my original point about coaching but lets be honest it's another big worry.

He also wanted Simao and Alves, but was priced out. They ARE the genuine articles in my book. The other signings aren't all necessarily BAD signings if you ask me; they could turn out to be good signings if we bring in a sprinkling of world-beaters as well.

I don't know whether it was Rafa's decision or the boards to not spend a bit more on one player, but I think we'll find out in due course.

[adblock109er]

Evans should have gone two years before he did.

Houllier should have gone two years before he did.

Big Ed said so - thought he was wrong at the time (both occasions) :o.

I really don't think Mr Kelly believes Rafa's the man and invariably the old fucker is usually correct (bastard)!

It's next year or bust (again) I'm afraid.

Believe Big Ed or hope he gets this one wrong.

Me? - I really want the Fat Spanish Waiter to get it right.

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[RED CORNER]

Posted by Real Deep.

I might be on my own here, but if I had my way, providing there isn't a very obvious backward trend for a couple of seasons, I'd stick with him whether or not he manages to find those magic signings that can turn us into title-winners; getting rid at that stage for failing to win the title would be like getting rid of one of your best players - it's not the answer. The last thing we need is yet another 'revolution'...




You're not on your own. Agree completely.

[WibbleClarke]

He has annoyed me a bit recently and I just can't understand, like I never could with Houllier, all the cautious stuff.

I get what you say Ad about next year or bust and in a way I agree, but what else are we gonna do? I think a few years of stability (if Rafa wants it) would be better for things than "another revolution" as someone put it earlier.

It was a bit different I feel with Houllier because of the embarrassing shite he started coming out with on a weekly basis. That had to stop. But even if we stall for a year or so, as long as Rafa has the determination and maybe a little more adventure I think we should let him have a good go at it and all learn some more patience.

If the football gets Houllier-like though and stays like it I will change my tune.

[RED CORNER]

Ad.

Well if it is 'next year or bust' we are just any other club as far as I'm concerned.

[Don Pedro]

I think this about the corners is a red herring. We've hardly ever got anything from them - there was Rome '77 of course - but even when we were winning the title, Another Wasted Corner was a standing joke.

Most teams supporters feel that they get nothing from corners, but that's how the game is. You think it's a chance, but it isn't really. Most goals from corners are regarded as defensive mistakes and it's easy to coach effective defence. If in doubt, put it out, because mostly, noone scores from corners.

[user name]

i tend to agree with the thread starter... the way in which criticism is levelled is always stronger with hindsight... i believe we have a much better side than we did this time last season... it may well be that we end up with nowt this season, just 3rd/4th place but i still believe we are going forwards with rafa...

as for some of the really, seamingly crazy choices, we just have to believe that those choices are made for the best footballing reasons, even if we don't get it... the game we lost to man united had little to do with the side rafa picked, the leadership on the field was non-existent and the team lacked bottle and spirit...

as for tac-ticks... tic-tacs whatever... the teams spirit should make those tackticks work, whether it's zonal marking, wacky corners or whatever... rafas job isn't to teach crouch to head the ball... that is down to chief/deputy ball-heading coach...(maybe i just found you a new job bc ;) )

i havn't seen us play for a few games now, heard some on the radio... so i havn't been able to give an opinion on the last few games... but i do feel that the team selection against barcelona/united et al will only be as good as those players are willing to play themselves... they give their all, we end up proud... win loose or draw... thats all i really expect of my team...

on our day we can play so well and compete with the best... rafa's continuing imput is the vital key to us getting back on top and staying there...:)

[adblock109er]

Ad.

Well if it is 'next year or bust' we are just any other club as far as I'm concerned.

RC, Wibble - it's not what I want, just what I think may happen in terms of Mystic Steve (:D).

Me - you know, I find it hard to care anymore.

I said after Dortmund - I could live off this for years.

And along came Istanbul.

I said after Istanbul - I could live off this for years.

And along came Cardiff (2006).

I said - the only thing now to beat this would be the league.

I thought that this was THE year.

After 2 years, I really thought Rafa would "suss" the league out.

I don't think he has.

I've always maintained I'd do two more years and then pass on the ST to the eldest lad (15 this year).

He's really made up about the takeover and new Stadium - me - :*( .

Two more seasons to win the league at Anfield before we move - surely to God it's written in the stars isn't it?

And after all of that - I do think that he'll do it.

Come on Rafa you twat - you've two more seasons ;).

I could even forget next season if we were guaranteed doing it in our final season at Anfield - surely the party to end all football parties :eek:.

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[Real Deep]

It's next year or bust (again) I'm afraid.

This cycle that we seem to go through with managers is becoming habitual, and it's very unhealthy for the club.

What's happened before with the previous managers, has got to be left in the past, and shouldn't be used as a guide as to how to deal with any future situations. If we constantly do that it creates a very unhelpful atmosphere and will probably end up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As a man, Rafa's the kind of honest, genuine and dignified person that we'd all like to see manage this football club. That of course would mean nothing if he wasn't very good at managing football teams, but clearly that's not the case. His record is up there with the very best.

I get the feeling that quite a few people are waiting for next summer's signings to not quite make the difference that we're all desperate for, to say, 'enoughs enough, he's got to go'.

In all honesty, the next step is the hardest one, and with that in mind I think there's a good chance that next year may well not be 'the year'; but I honestly can't see why it has to be the end of it. Is there anybody in the world who would be more qualified to take us forward? I don't think there is, or that there would be.

I'd stick with him, providing it's not blatantly obvious that we're continually going backwards - which up to now, I don't think we have been, even if it's unclear at the moment whether we're actually progressing this year.

[adblock109er]

Is there anybody in the world who would be more qualified to take us forward?

http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00201/David_Moyes__Everto_201727s.jpg

:D

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[Real Deep]

Ad, thanks for trying to underline the point I was trying to make, but I think you've overdone it a tad there.;)

[Ian K]

I get the feeling that quite a few people are waiting for next summer's signings to not quite make the difference that we're all desperate for, to say, 'enoughs enough, he's got to go'.


Really?
I think you should name names, AND inform the relevant authorities who should take the necessary steps to have these "quite a few people" sectioned.
As they'd have to either be completely mad, or football journalists.
;)

[Real Deep]

Really?
I think you should name names, AND inform the relevant authorities who should take the necessary steps to have these "quite a few people" sectioned.
As they'd have to either be completely mad, or football journalists.
;)

Just reading between the lines a little Ian. The dissenting voices are getting louder, and more frequent.

I hope we get off to a flyer next year and continue on in that vein, but you can see what's coming from a mile off, if we start slowly again.

[redforever]

Generally, I believe in Rafa's tactical abilities. Having said that, he's come up with one or two absolute howlers in his time (Istanbul first half being the most obvious); to his credit though he's generally not dogmatic about sorting it out.

His record in the transfer market has been called into question. But, as was discussed on a thread a while ago, when you actually lay it out there, it's been OK. The only big flop was Morientes and no one could have predicted that. The rest, Josemi apart (and we got out of gaol there financially) - and possibly Pennant - have lived up to their price tag, I'd say, or exceeded it. The problem has been that their price tag hasn't been that large in the overall scheme of things. People criticise Kuyt; but who would have been preferred for that money? Defoe? Bent? I wouldn't say either of them is better than Kuyt. As for Crouch and Bellamy, a £7m forward will score £7M worth of goals a season - which I'd say is 10-15 league goals tops. If he does better than that then you've got a bargain.

Maybe Rafa's biggest mistake so far has been trying to solve too much in the squad at one go. Forego one of Bellamy and Kuyt and we could have had Alves rather than Pennant. I tend to think that would have improved us rather more. But that's hindsight for you.

I think you have hit the nail on the head FB and i agree with all of what your saying. I think Rafa has tried to change too many players at one time and we paid big time at the start of the season for having a team that hardly knew each other in regards as playing together. I would have liked Rafa to have bought less numbers and bought 'Top Class' players which may have added enough to the squad to make up the seven points we trailed Chelsea by and overtaken Man U.But as you quite rightly pointed out FB that is hindsight for you mate. I hope that Rafa has bought the players for this season to suit a budget, and not because he believes they are the very best as that would be very worrying in regards to his judgment.

[kitchentable]

In an ideal world, people would say "Unless he drops his kecks and takes a shits on the Shankly statue, a European Cup win should buy the manager three years patience no questions asked".

However, as previously discussed, most if not all people are cunts ;) so a press led witchhunt will have a lot of people baying for blood before this year is out if we are not top of the league.

The takeover, ironically, will do him no favours in my opinion.

Yes, it will give him some money but the problem of expectation will become even more acute - particularly from the press who will be waiting with calculators and graphs in hand to illustrate the spending.

Worse than that will be the fact that every player we want to buy has just increased in price by at least 30% now that we have new owners talking up about how much investment they are going to make.

This has already been the case anyway. If Pennant, for instance, had gone to Everton....how much do you reckon the fee would have been ? £4 million ? Maybe less ?

So, what we will have is that we might now have the money to be in the market for a £15 million player but we will be charged so much over the odds that it will still be a £10 million player underneath.

With the price of mediocrity being so high these days - and the new budget not being limitless - he is going to have his work cut out to deliver the sort of signings that some of these cunts are expecting.

I still see him going for players with potential but with the expectancy level that already exists and the petrol that has been poured on it by the hysteria over the takeover, he will need them to deliver a bit more instant gratification than some of his signings to date.

[Rose of Mossley]

Just reading between the lines a little Ian. The dissenting voices are getting louder, and more frequent.

And the point I'd make from that, is that often, as a collective groups of fans, we fail to notice that we've passed from the stage of 'open criticism' (i.e. the point at which people no longer feel inhibited about 'having a pop' at the manager, reasonably or not) into 'open season' (when there's a general, vague sense of 'he's going to be on his way soon').

The thing for me is that the move into the latter phase isn't a conscious one, it happens before we realise it happens. Or something. :confused:

Anyway, on that basis, for me it's worth re-iterating that we're not there yet, and that criticism needs to be balanced, reasonable, and set in context (i.e. what's been happening since 1990).

I'd be happy to give him 2/3 more seasons right now, although, as KT hints, that would have some people reaching for their tablets immediately.

[Mozzaretti]

some of it does boil down to having to shop at Woolworths rather than Harrods or at the very least John Lewis...

Rafa could have thought about breaking the bank for one realy big player, with the thought that it might not pay off, or do what he has done gone for a lot of possibles only half of which have come off.

I think he could now be at a crossroads in his LFC career, there is no way of knowing exactly how patient the new chairmen will be and whether they will be willing to throw good money after bad if new players flop etc.

I suspect that if he does get big bucks in the summer we will find out whether he can get squad to really have a go from the start. I think he may only add one or two "big players" whilst letting others (clearly not up to the job) go. I wonder whether he has learnt the lesson of the last couple of years that changing the squad too much doesn't make for a good start to the season, which now seems more vital than ever.

I think Rafa is shrewd and knows his own mind. However, that also shows he can be a bit stubborn (which is a Ged like worry). Hmm, time will tell...

[FarmersBoy]

Picking up on KT's point, about players being priced more highly because of who we are in conjunction with Rafa's transfer policy, I fear a little for the future.

It's been pointed out that, since Rafa arrived, he's outspent Ferguson and Wenger. Which means that pretty much every player the Mancs or Arsenal were in for we could have bought - at least in terms of finding the transfer fee. And I suspect that, generally speaking, most of us would find that those players are of a higher calibre than the ones we have actually bought.

The trouble has been that we've been starting from a lower position. Would it have made sense to have bought fewer, top-drawer players rather than trying to re-vamp the squad with a larger number of players a rung or two lower? Maybe, if you could have assured that, in our third season, the top class we'd (putatively) have bought in the first season would have been inclined to hang about this long - but there are simply no guarantees of that and we could, instead, have ended up with a very damaging revolving door of the players' making.

This has a knock-on effect when it comes to trying to prise absolutely top quality players out of clubs at a similar level to ours. As KT's pointed out, to lever such players away from the clubs in question there will be a premium to be paid. How have the Mancs often (though not always) circumvented that? By using the player's desire for a move to reduce the fee a little. But, because of the level we're still at - the lure of playing for LFC isn't going to be there for many of the really top players. The result will be we're either going to have to pay absolutely top dollar for top players, or make do with ones who are at least a mezanine level below that.

[Dublin Red]

After reading this particular thread, I’d like to pose a question to all on here :

Based on what we’ve seen since he arrived, do we think Rafa can lead us to the title in, say, the next two or three years ?

With a few ‘better” players, I believe he can

No sitting on the fence now. :)


What say ye ?

[Me Old Pal Joe2]

It is this oft repeated nugget which is begining to rankle with me most RD.

World class coach?

- Sissoko still can't pass .

Well, I hardly think that when Rafa signed him he was expecting to turn him into the next Michel fucking Platini, but there you go.

He was signed as a ball-winning midfielder and personally I think he's performed this role admirably since day one. At around 5 and a half million he has also proved to be a real-bargain (his value will have unquestionably increased since we signed him).

Prior to his injury I actually think his all round game had improved, as well (there seems to be a lot of negativity around Sissoko at the moment - no doubt due in the main part to the fact that his return to the side happened to coincide with a defeat - typical knee-jerking)

Definitely one of Rafa's successes, in my opinion.


And a manager who doesn't seem willing to put the time in to teach Crouch to head a ball properly doesn't strike me as a manager who is about to learn from his mistakes. Because he won't see them as such.

A ludicrous assumption to make.

Crouch misses a few sitters in games and it's suddenly the manager's fault for not putting in the time and effort to teach him, is it?

I would suspect that Rafa's as frustrated by Crouch's failings in front of goal (with his head) as any of us (and he seemed visibly agitated when discussing it after the Blackburn game).

I can't for the life of me imagine that he'd simply shrug his shoulders and think 'Never mind, he might do better next time - now let's get him working on that zonal marking'.....or is Rafa 'unwilling' to put any time in working on that either?

[FarmersBoy]

After reading this particular thread, I’d like to pose a question to all on here :

Based on what we’ve seen since he arrived, do we think Rafa can lead us to the title in, say, the next two or three years ?

With a few ‘better” players, I believe he can

No sitting on the fence now. :)


What say ye ?


I'm not sure the premise of your question is valid.

How do we get these 'few better players'? Will Rafa buy them? Given that there are those who have concerns over his ability in buying top class players, that must itself be a point of debate too and to isolate one bit from the other makes the question rather academic, I'd say.

[RED CORNER]

The media 'witch-hunt' could well be started by reading threads like this.

[Big Ed]

Wow.

Is it 2003 already?

[Baboonery]

Wow.

Is it 2003 already?

Yep. It's also 10 September, 18 September, 1 October, 23 October...

Must we have the same more-heat-than-light conversation every time we get beat? None of this is remotely new, apart from Real Deep's original post. Unless you've got a romantic ideal of changing the manager every couple of weeks until we find the new Paisley, then can't we just get on with it?

[Big Ed]

Lazy c that I am, here's the relevant bit from the last editorial:

Our record in the biggest league games is absolutely appalling under Benitez, especially away from home, and because of that I’m almost ready to dismiss his chances of ever landing the title. I also can’t see Gerrard doing it either, since his career bears an uncanny similarity to that of Bryan Robson’s. That isn’t to say I want both out of the club ASAP because I admire the skills of both and could easily wind up with egg on my face. I’m generally right about these things though as countless Internet arguments over Gerard Houllier were eventually to prove. It’s a “rat/sinking ship” skill that I’m not in the least bit proud of. In the current circumstances even Liverpool fans have to rein in their ambitions. There are some formidable opponents out there and we’ve been very lucky that the second-level clubs like Newcastle Spurs and (don’t laugh) Everton still can’t quite get their acts together. It usually hands us a top four spot on a plate really.

There’s no doubt however that the Dubai takeover could change our entire perception of what’s possible here. If there will be a lot of money to spend (and I remain doubtful) I’m not entirely convinced that Rafa’s transfer record justifies complete faith in his judgement.
I'll stick with that for now - and change 'Dubai' :rolleyes:

[Matigol]

The media 'witch-hunt' could well be started by reading threads like this.
I was under the impression that the media witch-hunt had been in operation for at least a couple of years now.

- "Worst Liverpool team in 40 years".
- Insults the war dead with his team selection for the Burnley game.
- Inhibiting England's finest talent by continuing to play him out of position.
- Doesn't understand the English mentality with his "crazy" foreign rotation policy.
- In the midst of all this chaos he has the audacity to fluke a European Cup final win.
- And now, the latest heiness crime being to insult one of England's finest and oldest massive clubs with a throw-away remark about their ambition.

[Rose of Mossley]

One of things in life that irritates me the most, is this belief that some people seem to have that everything in life can be 'controlled' (and yes, that's an unfortunate word in this situation).

I therefore have more time for Mr Kelly's brand of realism.

But, to be brutally frank (and Warren, your catchphrase doesn't seem to be 'taking'), I still think one of the greatest challenges any Liverpool manager faces, in pursuit of the title, remains the weight of expectation and the attitude of an element of our own support.

For a start, arguably Chelsea were a much better team before they went all Realk Madrid last summer, and I think that still means hope for a team ethic triumph, which I'm sure we can replicate.

For this reason, if we were ever to win the title, I'm sure we'd need a 20 point lead coming into April...

After all, what comes first, the 'rats' (poor choice, again) or the 'sinking ship'?

[FarmersBoy]

Must we have the same more-heat-than-light conversation every time we get beat? None of this is remotely new, apart from Real Deep's original post. Unless you've got a romantic ideal of changing the manager every couple of weeks until we find the new Paisley, then can't we just get on with it?

I'd say this is partly a "harsh but fair" remark and partly a little unfair...

One of the things that emerges in my consciousness from this debate is that Rafa being 'The Man' and LFC winning the title aren't necessarily the same thing.

Might it not be that, as Rose points out, things beyond our control mean we don't win the league - but all the same Rafa IS the man because no one else could do better, or even as well as he has?

[Big Ed]

One of the things that emerges in my consciousness from this debate is that Rafa being 'The Man' and LFC winning the title aren't necessarily the same thing.

But, but, but (as someone else might say :rolleyes: )

In principle I agree 100%. I've seen all the glory any sane man could need.

However, surely Gillett and Hicks will impact on that? They're sinking hundreds of millions into the club, they'll be charging £50 a ticket. Who's going to do either of those things for "third's about all we can expect"?

If it is 60,000 (with huge queues and season ticket waiting lists) go to it. Frankly I'd be amazed if it would be.

Winning isn't the most important, it's the only thing.........er, except when we can't.

Inspiring.

PS Baboonery: tied to a chair and forced to read Internet forums. Life is hell ;)

[Rose of Mossley]

Well, we're rapidly reaching a situation where what we now desire (sustained perch sitting) and where we are (head down in bird feed) has been seen before, and successfully 'managed'.

In other words, United's original recovery under Ferguson (not this season).

I'm always cautious of trotting out the old 'you need to stick with the same manager' routine, but we haven't really tried this yet, since the 1980s, have we?

We haven't stuck with a bloke through thick and thin. We've not changed manager as many as some, but we're not absolutely 'squeaky clean' on the revolving door accusation.

I accept that outside factors may prevent what I'm suggesting (e.g. Rafa may decide to leave, and the power of the media is now felt much more stronlgy than before), but, putting such things to one side, we could, ahem, just give him a go for a few more seasons. In the hope/expectation that he continues to grow and learn, as a manager.

Alternatively, we could jettison him, in a couple of years time, for a pretence of cohesion, and start all over again.

[Rafa El Gaffer]

84 minutes into a merseyside derby and you sub the paciest most direct player on the pitch as your first sub.

Trully baffled me that one.

[Matt R]

I actually agreed with that, because its pretty hard to use pace when the defence ain't leaving the 18 yard line, and the build-up play is more or less being replaced by hopeful crosses. May as well bring your best finisher/box player on in the hope that one falls somewhere near him if that's the way you're going to play.

As to why we're playing like that is a whole different kettle of fish.

[big dutch]

I was under the impression that the media witch-hunt had been in operation for at least a couple of years now.

- "Worst Liverpool team in 40 years".
- Insults the war dead with his team selection for the Burnley game.
- Inhibiting England's finest talent by continuing to play him out of position.
- Doesn't understand the English mentality with his "crazy" foreign rotation policy.
- In the midst of all this chaos he has the audacity to fluke a European Cup final win.
- And now, the latest heiness crime being to insult one of England's finest and oldest massive clubs with a throw-away remark about their ambition.

and thats just from mccarthys page in the people :rolleyes:

[Rafa El Gaffer]

I actually agreed with that, because its pretty hard to use pace when the defence ain't leaving the 18 yard line, and the build-up play is more or less being replaced by hopeful crosses. May as well bring your best finisher/box player on in the hope that one falls somewhere near him if that's the way you're going to play.

As to why we're playing like that is a whole different kettle of fish.

Okay so although I don't agree, why did it take 84 minutes to work that out ?

[Tom Blease]

Alternatively, we could jettison him, in a couple of years time, for a pretence of cohesion, and start all over again.

And replace him with? I know you're talking hypothetically and not suggesting we do this RoM, so I'm not having a pop at you. But my point is IF Rafa were to leave/be shown the door, who is out there that we could realistically get/would want?

O'Neill? :rolleyes:

[redmonkey]

The key point for Rafa will be 6 to 8 games into next season. The trend in his 3 seasons so far has been for a very slow start that leaves us playing catch-up from September onwards. It was frustrating enough this season, but there was a tough set of fixtures to contend with. If we start slowly again, with title hopes realistically lost so early in the campaign, I do think the tide may begin to turn against him.

Looking at funds spent set against achievement, I doubt any manager would've done better than Rafa. Two major trophies and an 80 point season should be enough for anyone. With potentially more money being invested I'm sure Benitez would accept that he must at least contend strongly for the title. Another slow start would leave concerns of a big flaw in his management. It is clear that without vastly improving our start to the season, we'll never win the league.

[Matt R]

Well, they weren't playing like that for the whole 90 minutes for a start. Bellamy up against Stubbs is a no-brainer, unless you try and play every ball at head height :rolleyes:

There was far more wrong with that performance than the subbing of Bellamy.

[Real Deep]

I'd say this is partly a "harsh but fair" remark and partly a little unfair...

One of the things that emerges in my consciousness from this debate is that Rafa being 'The Man' and LFC winning the title aren't necessarily the same thing.

Might it not be that, as Rose points out, things beyond our control mean we don't win the league - but all the same Rafa IS the man because no one else could do better, or even as well as he has?

Which is exactly the point that I was trying to make.

I made an analogy about how getting rid of him for failing to win the title, would be like getting rid one of your best players for failing to win the title. To be the best takes a great team; great players, great coaching staff and a great manager.

I'm not trying to get him off the hook by saying, " well it's not his fault!"; but I do think it's possible to have the best man for the job at the club without winning the league in the first 5/6 years. The competition is fierce; as fierce as it's ever been in my opinion.

Is there anyone in the world who could have a better job than he's done so far, overall? You can point to the terrible record against the top clubs in the league etc. - that could obviously be improved on - but what about overall? Champions League winners, 82 points, FA Cup, in his first two years. You'd be hard pushed...

[Big Ed]

Just out of curiosity, when do people think the manager of the Spanish champions let it be known that he'd like to manage us? When did Parry (I assume) get it into his head that he was going to ask?

A similar question could be asked about Chelsea and the manager of the European champions.

May 2004? Hardly. We don't know who would be available until the job is available, surely?

Managers will be dumped if there is no clear sign of progress two years in a row. Is anyone claiming this for Evans and Houllier? Thought not.

We were saying that Liverpool look fairly ropey when a goal down by late 2005, maybe even before that? We're still saying it now,

If we're still saying it in February 2008 and are a similar distance behind United and/or Chelsea, are you seriously going to be claiming that changing the manager isn't a viable option?

[Rafa El Gaffer]

3 Seasons. All you can ask for is improvement every season. Next season will be your answer.

[Tom Blease]

Just out of curiosity, when do people think the manager of the Spanish champions let it be known that he'd like to manage us? When did Parry (I assume) get it into his head that he was going to ask?

A similar question could be asked about Chelsea and the manager of the European champions.

May 2004? Hardly. We don't know who would be available until the job is available, surely?

Managers will be dumped if there is no clear sign of progress two years in a row. Is anyone claiming this for Evans and Houllier? Thought not.

We were saying that Liverpool look fairly ropey when a goal down by late 2005, maybe even before that? We're still saying it now,

If we're still saying it in February 2008 and are a similar distance behind United and/or Chelsea, are you seriously going to be claiming that changing the manager isn't a viable option?

Not at all Ed. I only made the point as I can't see anyone who I'd rather have in charge at this moment in time. That may obviously change between now and when (if) Rafa does go, but right now, who else is there?

[Real Deep]

Managers will be dumped if there is no clear sign of progress two years in a row. Is anyone claiming this for Evans and Houllier? Thought not.

Evans was borderline, Houllier was a no-brainer. And yet as conflicted as I was about Evans (probably the only one), the irony is that it's undeniable that we did make some progress under Houllier. Was he the long-term answer though? Probably best if I leave that particular argument at that. We've done that one to death...:rolleyes:

People can talk all they like about our record when we go behind, but is anyone trying to seriously tell me that he's under-achieved overall since he's been here? That's the only relevant point.

If the time comes that the board have seriously got to consider whether or not a change in management would be the best way forward for the club, I seriously hope they don't look to the past for the answers.

[Big Ed]

That may obviously change between now and when (if) Rafa does go, but right now, who else is there?
Nobody, but then the job's not up for grabs is it?

Even I'm not saying it is! ;)

Who's managing Huddersfield at the moment? :D

[Big Ed]

RD

Even by the spring of 2004 people were putting up the Treble & 80 Points argument up for Gerard.

Which is what it seems you're doing for Rafa.

The debate seems to be centred on maybe we'll have to give Rafa a longer benefit of the doubt than the others because somehow that will be more beneficial to the club in the long-term. If that's fair of me, then I really think that's a hit-and-hope way of running a club.

And naive, because the Yanks won't do it and that's that.

End of discussion? Baboonery would hope so ;)

[Tom Blease]

Nobody, but then the job's not up for grabs is it?

Even I'm not saying it is! ;)

Who's managing Huddersfield at the moment? :D

I might put myself forward then. I'm boss at champ manager you know.

[Big Ed]

And up pipes the slow lament of Amazing Grace:

Tom Bleeeeeease
Tom Bleeeeeease
Tom Bleeeeeease
Tom Bleeeeeease
Tom Bleeeeeease
Tom Bleeeeeease
Tom Bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease

[Tom Blease]

I can see it now Ed.........

Anybody got Rick Parry's email? Or do I have to go through RTK first?

[Rose of Mossley]

And replace him with? I know you're talking hypothetically and not suggesting we do this RoM, so I'm not having a pop at you. But my point is IF Rafa were to leave/be shown the door, who is out there that we could realistically get/would want?

I think you misunderstood.

I was actually saying that I'm one (of the idiots) who would be tempted to stick with him, in 2008, if he were no closer.

[Real Deep]

RD

Even by the spring of 2004 people were putting up the Treble & 80 Points argument up for Gerard.

Which is what it seems you're doing for Rafa.

The debate seems to be centred on maybe we'll have to give Rafa a longer benefit of the doubt than the others because somehow that will be more beneficial to the club in the long-term. If that's fair of me, then I really think that's a hit-and-hope way of running a club.

And naive, because the Yanks won't do it and that's that.



In some ways, you could probably call whatever we did in that scenario 'hit-and-hope'. Is there anything more hit-and-hope than appointing a new manager? Never any guarantees.

Stick with a manager who's built up 5 years experience at the club; or start again from scratch? The question should always be, 'who's the best person to take us forward from here?' Not, 'well he's had his chance....' Getting rid is sometimes the best option, but not always.

I wouldn't be so sure about how the Yanks would handle such a scenario either. They don't strike me as the sort who demand instant results; they're intention not to just throw money at the problem suggests that they may well take a more long-term view. We'll have to wait and see.

[Big Ed]

In some ways, you could probably call whatever we did in that scenario 'hit-and-hope'. Is there anything more hit-and-hope than appointing a new manager? Never any guarantees.

Stick with a manager who's built up 5 years experience at the club; or start again from scratch? The question should always be, 'who's the best person to take us forward from here?' Not, 'well he's had his chance....' Getting rid is sometimes the best option, but not always.

I wouldn't be so sure about how the Yanks would handle such a scenario either. They don't strike me as the sort who demand instant results; they're intention not to just throw money at the problem suggests that they may well take a more long-term view. We'll have to wait and see.
You know what - you're right!

Anyone else heard of this "wait and see" business? :D

The Yanks more patient than Moores, you say?

Care for a small wager? ;)

[Rose of Mossley]

He's not taking us seriously.

I demand to be taken seriously.

;)

[Big Ed]

What fucker said that???
















Here we go.........

[Real Deep]

Even by the spring of 2004 people were putting up the Treble & 80 Points argument up for Gerard.

This is the problem for me. Parallels are constantly drawn with the past, when in actuality it's not really relevant.

I hope the board look at these things in isolation, rather than feeling that they should act in a certain way out of a sense of fairness to the previous managers.

[Don Pedro]

On the one hand, there's the cliché about Ferguson taking 7 years before landing the league. I remember laughing at some phone-in on Red Rose radio in May '92, when every manc caller said the manager had to go, wasn't good enough etc.

Of course, football has moved on since then. But, to my mind, it's continual managerial change that is the "hit and hope" way of running a club.

Look at Real Madrid, since del Bosque was packed off in 2002.

It's fair to say that our last 3 managers have each improved on the previous one - at least to being with.

To me, that argues for sticking, not twisting, unless things go really, badly, wrong.

[carr lane]

anybody who describes EVERTON as a small/er club is alright by me......

now leave him alone...too much yakety yak ...get to work

[kitchentable]

One aspect to this is the inevitable fire sale of the previous regime's players and subsequent funding of new ones that happens when a new manager is installed.

After laying out their initial stake and having to fund the new stadium, are the pockets of the new owners really deep enough to afford that as well ?

Or will the pressure to succeed mean that they might feel that they can't afford not to ?

I think any yardstick by which we might be able to gauge the longevity of the manager disappeared with the takeover.

We are living in different times.

[FarmersBoy]

It's fair to say that our last 3 managers have each improved on the previous one - at least to being [sic] with.

This encapsulates something I was thinking as I read down to this point... If each of the last three managers has improved on the previous one how can it be that we're actually still where we were all those years ago -i.e. 3rd/4th????

I suppose the answer is that Evans played nicer teams that Souness and got closer to a challenge for the title; Houllier won more than Evans; and Rafa won bigger trophies than Houllier.

All of which goes to show that until you define the criterion by which you're going to measure a manager's success, the debate has no direction. And yet, I think we all know exactly what we're looking for in terms of progress: the title. And we're as far away from that as we were 11 years ago. The cup successes have, if anything, served to deny clarity to what would have otherwise been a very clear (and very grim) picture!

[Rushian]

RD

Even by the spring of 2004 people were putting up the Treble & 80 Points argument up for Gerard.

Not sure there were that many left Steve - thought the tipping point had long gone by then with the vast majority wanting change (including the board).

[Real Deep]

This encapsulates something I was thinking as I read down to this point... If each of the last three managers has improved on the previous one how can it be that we're actually still where we were all those years ago -i.e. 3rd/4th????

Because as we've made progress, so have the other top clubs.

[Big Ed]

Not sure there were that many left Steve - thought the tipping point had long gone by then with the vast majority wanting change (including the board).
Paging Emlyn's Song, paging Emlyn's Song :D

Weren't there in Jan 2003 though were yerz? :cool:

Steven Kelly - blazer of trails.........

[Big Ed]

The cup successes have, if anything, served to deny clarity to what would have otherwise been a very clear (and very grim) picture!
Probably more to do with the Champions League?

And in a perverse sort of way Platini might actually be in our corner :confused:

[FarmersBoy]

Because as we've made progress, so have the other top clubs.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Surely in this context progress can only be measure relative to the other clubs???

Otherwise you could argue that, due to improvement in diet/fitness/tactics, Bolton have progressed relative to our title winning side in 1966!

[hoggydoggy70]

This encapsulates something I was thinking as I read down to this point... If each of the last three managers has improved on the previous one how can it be that we're actually still where we were all those years ago -i.e. 3rd/4th????

The bar has been raised -it's stating well-known facts, but what it takes to win the league is increasing incrementally all the time,

1997/98: Arsenal -78 points
1998/99: Man Utd -79
2000/01: Man Utd -80
2001/02: Arsenal -87
2003/04: Arsenal - 90
2004/05: Chelsea - 95
2005/06: Chelsea - 91

NB. Both 1999/2000 and 2002/03 don't fit the above pattern in isolation, but the underlying trend is still consistent.

EDIT: Post prepared, prior to FB's "relative improvement" argument - damned clockwork computer!

[Rafa El Gaffer]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Surely in this context progress can only be measure relative to the other clubs???

Otherwise you could argue that, due to improvement in diet/fitness/tactics, Bolton have progressed relative to our title winning side in 1966!

Ok. While United are spending 18 million on Carrick and Chelski are spending a minnimum of 30mill on Shevchenko (fee never really revealed) while Rafa last season spent 6.5 on a get out on Bellamy.

Last season Rafa took us to our highest ever points total. Were it not for the unprecidented spending by Chelski we would probably have been Champions.

There are problems that need addressing with the main one being GOALS.

The grass isn't always greener.

[Real Deep]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Surely in this context progress can only be measure relative to the other clubs???

Otherwise you could argue that, due to improvement in diet/fitness/tactics, Bolton have progressed relative to our title winning side in 1966!

Ok, I'll put it another way then: we've improved but so have our rivals.

[Big Ed]

Ok. While United are spending 18 million on Carrick and Chelski are spending a minnimum of 30mill on Shevchenko (fee never really revealed) while Rafa last season spent 6.5 on a get out on Bellamy.
Nice try.

May 2006: Utd 83 pts, Liverpool 82 pts.

Didn't MU sell Van Nistelrooy before they could afford Carrick?

Didn't we bring in Kuyt and Pennant as well as Bellamy, also with piddly amounts for Gonzalez and Palletta.

I'm not clairvoyant but I think the gap in May 2007 will be more than one point.

People are going to ask why, and I suspect they won't be waiting until May 2008 to do so.

[Creator Supreme]

He's not, I just know he isn't, wish it was different!

A brilliant man, a brilliant manager (winning the CL with THAT squad!!), but we won't win the title under him.

Sad thing is, I don't know who will win the title for us!

Very Depressed!! :( :( :( :( :(

[Big Ed]

1997/98: Arsenal -78 65
1998/99: Man Utd -79 54
1999/00 mu 91 67
2000/01: Man Utd -80 69
2001/02: Arsenal -87 80
2002/03 MU 83 64
2003/04: Arsenal - 90 60
2004/05: Chelsea - 95 58
2005/06: Chelsea - 91 82


Just thought I'd add ours in.

[Rose of Mossley]

If your point is that a somewhat distant third this season (and no Champions League win) followed by the same or worse next season will, in all probability, mean that the new owners will 'twist', then I can understand that (although at present, I'd like to think we'd give him more time (laugh/scowl if you want)).

However, I'm not sure if you're going further than that?

I get the impression that you may be saying that you expect the same or worse, next year, and that you think he will/should then go.

But I may have read this all wrong.

If, though, I have it right, then I disagree.

[Rafa El Gaffer]

Nice try.

May 2006: Utd 83 pts, Liverpool 82 pts.

Didn't MU sell Van Nistelrooy before they could afford Carrick?

Didn't we bring in Kuyt and Pennant as well as Bellamy, also with piddly amounts for Gonzalez and Palletta.

I'm not clairvoyant but I think the gap in May 2007 will be more than one point.

People are going to ask why, and I suspect they won't be waiting until May 2008 to do so.

Didn't United also have an established Premiership side that were clearly underperforming including 20 odd million pound players and players that had been there and done it, not to mention a Manager who had been their for over a decade ?

All relative.

[Big Ed]

side that were clearly underperforming
Seriously? By equalling their title-winning total from 3 years previously?

But they still beat a Liverpool team that got its best tally for 18 years.

Fuck, that's depressing.

[Rafa El Gaffer]

Seriously? By equalling their title-winning total from 3 years previously?

But they still beat a Liverpool team that got its best tally for 18 years.

Fuck, that's depressing.

You only have to look at this season to see that by their standards (as should be ours!) they were underperforming and had been for a while, even pre Chelski.

[emlyn's song]

Paging Emlyn's Song, paging Emlyn's Song :D

Just reading and allowing myself a wry smile. Kind of predicted this for Rafa didn't I?

I think Red Corner had it about right a few pages back.

[Rushian]

Didn't MU sell Van Nistelrooy before they could afford Carrick?


Not really - it was more the "compensation" of £12m for Jon Obi Mikel from Chelsea which helped on that front. Don't forget they had a ludicrous bid for Hargreaves on Bayern's table after the Carrick deal had been sorted so the money was in place.

[Rose of Mossley]

Anyone else left feeling somewhat perplexed by this thread?

I mean, I wasn't expecting a nice, neat answer, gift-wrapped, with a Premiership title tucked inside an envelope under the ribbon, but there's a vague feeling of 'things left unsaid' about it.

Or maybe I'm having a moon on a stick moment.

[redmonkey]

I think it's hard to give a forthright view one way or the other about Benitez's Liverpool. Most of us will have a few doubts along with the many reasons to be positive about the work done so far. While we are a notch below the very best in the league and just far enough ahead of the rest, there will also be a level of disappointment. You can't get away from the fact that after 27 games we are separated from Bolton by a single win. We're deep into February, and we have lost the same amount of games as Everton. Until we start to really look like a side capable of keeping up with United and Chelsea, fans can't be truly happy.

That doesn't mean most want him sacked, but it does allow you to understand why Big Ed pours scorn on the Genius tag given by the owner. It's not so much unsaid to me, it's more that I'm not entirely sure where we are going as a team and whether it will be good or bad.

[Big Ed]

Absolutely.

The temptation to write "Hi, we're TTW&R - obviously we've never met" in response to some of the posts has been difficult.

Website forum in "Someone asked the question, people gave opinion" shocker.

You wanna be a cheerleader? Get a pair of pom poms and a short skirt then.

You wanna discuss the future of our club and our manager in a calm, sensible fashion? Stay right here.

Has anyone even mentioned the "posseebeleteez" of him leaving of his own accord? If Capello is desperate enough to start picking Beckham again he must be on borrowed time surely?

[Rose of Mossley]

Has anyone even mentioned the "posseebeleteez" of him leaving of his own accord?

I'm sure we did.

It's another one of those things we mentioned that we can't control :rolleyes: ;)

I'd be amazed if anyone hasn't seriously contemplated a scenario whereby he leaves, they all do, one way or another. The debate (I thought) was about where we thought he may be currently on the 'exit-when-a-graph'.

I think some have him in the position I'd have him next season, should we still be in the same boat then. And that perplexed me. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Big Ed]

The takeover changes things.

If it was still up to Moores I know it would depend on what he does next season. Will the new boys be more impatient or less?

We're not getting 82 points this season, but it will be interesting to see just how much we've dropped back from last season after spending 30m. I'll be amazed if we're third again.

I admit I was being slightly mischievous by putting the Baldwin avatar up:

"These are the funds, the Gillett-Hicks transfer funds, and to you they're gold and you don't get them.

Why?

Because to give them to you would be just throwing them away.

They're for closers".






decision on tonight's viewing made I think

[Rose of Mossley]

I see that point, about the new owners.

It's an 'unknown' though. They may take a 'we have to get to know this business/we have to trust those who do know the business' approach, and leave him be, but I suppose that that doesn't then necessarily mean that they'll give him more money to throw around.

New owners do like to make their mark in terms of management, though. Look at Chelsea ditching Ranieri, and West Ham ditching Pardew.

Anyway, I expect that Rafa considers himself to be a 'leave before pushed' sort of chap. So, for me, anything but a quick start next season, and we could see an early change, but with him making the move.

[redforever]

The thing with Benitez's Team for me is that it lacks consistency. I for one was convinced that this would be our year, but in all honesty we have gone backwards, Rafa signings are average at best. Bellamy is a good player but he is not an out and out goalscorer. Kuyt is great but again he is spending too much time outside the box. Pennant has been his best signing this year but he still is no ronaldo. I know finances dictate transfers but surely you do not make signigs that make you go backwards. I think Rafa will be off to madrid in the summer and once again we will be rebuilding under a new foreign genius.:*(

[RightHandPost]

This encapsulates something I was thinking as I read down to this point... If each of the last three managers has improved on the previous one how can it be that we're actually still where we were all those years ago -i.e. 3rd/4th????

Basically Don Pedro had it right, there's always an initial improvement, because there's always major room for that improvement when a new manager arrives. Unfortunately due to the speed in which the game progresses, by the time the ship has been steadied, the bar has been raised and with the top sides becoming ever more powerful domestically we're forever playing catch up.

First of all out of the three I believe that Roy inherited the biggest mess. He took over a demotivated team that didn't enjoy playing football and had massively underachieved compared to what the standards were before them - basically a team in a bigger downward spiral than both Gerard and Rafa inherited.

He got them playing football quickly, and things looked bright for two seasons - part one achieved, everyone at Liverpool was loving their football again. Then he had to instill the backbone and professionalism that has to go alongside that but he couldn't do it so the initial momentum tailed off. The players became demotivated again, not because they weren't enjoying themselves enough but because they were enjoying themselves too much. Either way we couldn't push on.

Gerard took over with disciple at a woeful level, which made his job ever the harder as even the senior pros like Ruddock, Ince and yes, Fowler, didn't take to his ideas of professionalism from the start. However he fought to instill just that, aided by his own signings, serious men, and players like Carragher (who got with the programme right away). Part one achieved. In the process he neglected, to an extent, the footballing side. We could never express ourselves from then because caution reigned and the negaitivity breeded more demotivation, so couldn't push on.

Rafa took over a troubled side who wanted to achieve. I've heard on good authority that the bulk of the squad took a fair while to lose faith in Gerard, far longer than you'd imagine from stereotypical feckless modern pros, because he'd given them good times. Eventually though, they just became stultified, and they knew it. Despite inheriting that mindset and despite being handicapped still further by unprecedented injuries, Rafa dragged them to Istanbul and put the club back on top of the world. Disillusionment over, part one achieved.

He also found the knack which had escaped his predecessors, by recreating Fortress Anfield and regularly beating the also rans of making us competitive week in week out. He's done that by spreading his resources (which by the way, were smaller than the others in relative terms) as thin as he could, to create a second tier squad far better than the morass of Premeirship sides but clearly not as good as the top two or three. Yet for him part two in this rarified climate at the top, is to now bridge that gap in quality.

If he contrives a way of matching the top three sides on the day, which Gerard's hyper-motivated pumped up sides managed early on, while carrying on routinely overpowering the smaller sides he will win us the league.

[Big Ed]

And we're not the only ones:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=165156.0

I always think RAWK are quite 'chipper' about our prospects, so if they're getting into it too......

[Rushian]

And we're not the only ones:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=165156.0

I always think RAWK are quite 'chipper' about our prospects, so if they're getting into it too......

Hahaha - had just popped on to post that link as reassurance TTWAR isn't the only forum discussing it. Though I have my suspicions Scouser Tommy is a TTWAR plant ;)

[Big Ed]

Great minds, Steve ;)

[Rose of Mossley]

Well ok, this one must have taken some thought :*( :

Rafa is very popular amongst reds fans, and so he should be. he's won cups and has progressed every year. He needs time, its a very competitive league to win and he hasnt had vast amounts of money to splash out on new players.

Rafa is class, we will win no 19 with Rafa, but we may have to wait a little longer, as long as i see progression i am happy. I take the view if he went, who would we get in.. ??

no one half as good as Rafa thats for sure....

[Devski]

I don't agre that there's been constant progress under Rafa though. last year was an improvement on the year before (Istanbul aside) but the improvement received a fracture in the summer and has been stuttering all through this season.

I believe as someone said earlier, that too many new players were expected to bed in from the start in August & that made it impossible to continue the form from the end of 05/06.

There is of course pressure to display your new signings right from the outset, but does anyone feel we would've benefitted (sic) from keeping the same battle-hardened team (minus Cisse) from May - whilst introducing the new-boys bit-by-bit?
Hindsight being wonderful & all that.

As for Rafa being the man - not sure I can judge that just yet. But if I had to plump for it I'd say yes he is. All I know is that I don't want to see us become anything like some continental clubs; the worst extreme being Atletico under Jesus Gil :eek:

[RED CORNER]

One of the points I've been trying to make is that the 'conjecture' as to what may or may not happen ( and it's mostly been negative ) with regard to Rafa's future has, in my view, been a little ott.
We're having an 'iffy' season and already we're talking about might the board get rid or might Rafa' walk by himself. What hasn't been discussed much on this thread is the possibility that he might just be even more successful with LFC than he has already been. I can appreciate that the last 17 years have left its cynical mark on many of us, but to this extent?
I can see that next season is already becoming critical in terms of where we are going and I think that's wrong given what he has already done here. It's far from perfect but he has to be given time and not just a season or two without any progress.

If that makes me a cheer-leader......... Give me an 'R'.;)

[Don Pedro]

Has anyone even mentioned the "posseebeleteez" of him leaving of his own accord? If Capello is desperate enough to start picking Beckham again he must be on borrowed time surely?

I did, and I think it will look more and more likely if:

Capello fails to win La Liga - gap is only 3pts so not impossible - or the CL (not that that saved del Bosque's neck);
The board/owners don't live up to Rafa's expectations for a transfer budget (even if you happen to think he'd have a good chance of blowing it on turkeys);
Madrid don't have any new sort of Perez-type president throwing his weight around, making the manager's job a nightmare.

Personally, I really don't know whether Benítez will bring us the league, assuming no departure. As RoM said, we'd have to be a lot of pts ahead of second, going into a run-in, because the pressure would be enormous. Added to that, as has been noted, the bar's been raised, and you can't win the league with a shade over 2 pts anymore. Every draw, every defeat, is a set back. MU have only dropped 15 pts all season.

I certainly can't think of another candidate who'd obviously have a better chance. And most managerial changes, anywhere in football, don't improve thi

So stick, unless and until things are so bad we have to twist.

[FarmersBoy]

I don't agre that there's been constant progress under Rafa though. last year was an improvement on the year before (Istanbul aside) but the improvement received a fracture in the summer and has been stuttering all through this season.

This is going to sound barmy but, actually I think it's possible that there HAS been constant progress under Rafa even though this year's league performance will end up being worse than last year's. Here goes for a barmy explanation.

Might it not be right that we have a better overall squad than we had last year? The rub is that, because the squad is better, Rafa has felt inclined to use more of it more often with the result that the 11 on the pitch ends up not being as good as last year on occasions?

An analogy might be a swimmer, who takes time to work on his technique and, as a result, temporarily becomes slower as he adopts the new technique. But, ultimately, because the old technique was flawed, it was yielding as much as it could whereas the new improved stroke, though slower at present, has the capacity to make him faster overall. That would be progress wouldn't it?

Shit reasoning? Oh well....

[Big Ed]

One of the points I've been trying to make is that the 'conjecture' as to what may or may not happen ( and it's mostly been negative ) with regard to Rafa's future has, in my view, been a little ott.We're having an 'iffy' season and already we're talking about might the board get rid or might Rafa' walk by himself
and if next season is 'iffy'?

One of the bigger doubts about Rafa is his ability in the transfer market, since most of the successful Valencia team was there waiting for him and his knights in shining armour keep reminding us of what he did with 'those' players in Istanbul.

Given one of Parry's little mantras has been "you can only sell the family silver once" - I could say something about an accountant's ingenuity here but I won't - I think it's more than fair to ask if new people are going to take time and measure just whether that new money truly is in safe hands.

Too much talk about Rafa getting to buy his 'real' targets when he more than likely could have done so if he hadn't blown small pockets of loose change on players who will never ever be first choice.

But maybe I'd better not say any of this just in case the national press are looking in and we spark any more conjecture :rolleyes:

[Big Ed]

Might it not be right that we have a better overall squad than we had last year?
Okay, I'll start:

Left back 2005: Riise, Traore or Warnock.

2007: Riise or Aurelio.

[FarmersBoy]

Too much talk about Rafa getting to buy his 'real' targets when he more than likely could have done so if he hadn't blown small pockets of loose change on players who will never ever be first choice.


Pennant 7 Million.

Loose change? You got room for a another psychophantic mate?

[FarmersBoy]

Okay, I'll start:

Left back 2005: Riise, Traore or Warnock.

2007: Riise or Aurelio.

Right Side:

2005/6 Gerrard

2006/7 - Pennant, Gerrard

Left Side:

2005/6 - Kewell, Garcia

2006/7 - Kewell, Garcia, Gonzalez.


Strikers

2005/6 - Crouch, Fowler, Morientes, Cisse

2006/7 - Crouch, Fowler, Kuyt, Bellamy (or are some people gonna re-evaluate their view of Cisse in retrospect!;) )

[Big Ed]

first team squad from the offal:

Liverpool FC Squad

1. Jerzy Dudek
2. Alvaro Arbeloa
3. Steve Finnan
4. Sami Hyypia
5. Daniel Agger
6. John Arne Riise
7. Harry Kewell
8. Steven Gerrard MBE
9. Robbie Fowler
10. Luis Garcia
11. Mark Gonzalez
12. Fabio Aurelio
14. Xabi Alonso
15. Peter Crouch
16. Jermaine Pennant
17. Craig Bellamy
18. Dirk Kuyt J
22. Momo Sissoko
23. Jamie Carragher
25. Pepe Reina
26. Paul Anderson
29. Gabriel Paletta
32. Boudewijn Zenden
34. Miki Roque
35. Danny Guthrie
37. Lee Peltier
38. Craig Lindfield
39. Stephen Darby
40. David Martin
42. Nabil El Zhar
- Florent Sinama Pongolle
- James Smith
- Jordy Brouwer
- Daniele Padelli
- Emiliano Insua
- Francisco Manuel Duran
- Ronald Huth
- Ryan Flynn
- David Roberts
- Robbie Threlfall
- Danny O'Donnell
- Djibril Cisse
- Scott Carson
- Besian Idrizaj
- Adam Hammill
- Jack Hobbs
- Anthony Le Tallec
- Godwin Antwi

Well, quantity ain't a problem!

[Devski]

This is going to sound barmy but, actually I think it's possible that there HAS been constant progress under Rafa even though this year's league performance will end up being worse than last year's. Here goes for a barmy explanation.

Might it not be right that we have a better overall squad than we had last year? The rub is that, because the squad is better, Rafa has felt inclined to use more of it more often with the result that the 11 on the pitch ends up not being as good as last year on occasions?

An analogy might be a swimmer, who takes time to work on his technique and, as a result, temporarily becomes slower as he adopts the new technique. But, ultimately, because the old technique was flawed, it was yielding as much as it could whereas the new improved stroke, though slower at present, has the capacity to make him faster overall. That would be progress wouldn't it?

Shit reasoning? Oh well....

Not at all and you're no doubt right that Rafa is playing a long-term game. However the success or failure of that can't be judged until we reach the end of the allotted time period & we don't even know what that is.

If the team is gelling & playing superbly by the end of this season, who's to say it will continue to do so next season? There will undoubtedly be more signings in the summer - I just feel they could be introduced gradually to the 1st team.

Also there is no international tournament this summer to add to the distraction.

[vin]

You have to wonder what is going on behind the scenes as well, especially with Noel White making comments earlier in the season.

[redforever]

This is going to sound barmy but, actually I think it's possible that there HAS been constant progress under Rafa even though this year's league performance will end up being worse than last year's. Here goes for a barmy explanation.

Might it not be right that we have a better overall squad than we had last year? The rub is that, because the squad is better, Rafa has felt inclined to use more of it more often with the result that the 11 on the pitch ends up not being as good as last year on occasions?

An analogy might be a swimmer, who takes time to work on his technique and, as a result, temporarily becomes slower as he adopts the new technique. But, ultimately, because the old technique was flawed, it was yielding as much as it could whereas the new improved stroke, though slower at present, has the capacity to make him faster overall. That would be progress wouldn't it?

Shit reasoning? Oh well....
Not at all FB, look at Phil 'the power' Taylor 13 times darts champ, he lost the wc final last year and has changed his darts, as a consequence his form is poor at the moment while he is getting used to the new darts but ultimately he believes that these darts are going to make him better. Only time will tell but i fully understand your reasoning.

[WibbleClarke]

As RoM said, we'd have to be a lot of pts ahead of second, going into a run-in, because the pressure would be enormous.


Or we will have to be in a similar position to where we are now, with the leaders suffering a Newcastle '96 or ManU '98 style capitulation. Allowing us to storm to the title, winning all our last 10 games, like we did at the end of last season. Scoring first in each of them of course;)

That sort of brings me onto what I want to say about Rafa. Why should we be even speculating about the future of a manager in his third season when he won the European Cup in his first and achieved 82 league points in his second? 'Cos we are never happy?

I for one am not happy with a team who are simply incapable of winning league matches from a losing position, and my reservations stem from this really. It is uninspiring and , although this smay sound stupid, I would almost consider a title win hollow if we failed to score an equaliser for the entire season! The conerns about transfer records and the like do not concern me anywhere near as much as this.

The manager's job, if we are to win this thing ever, is not only to create his team but to motivate them so, when needed they can raise their game to a higher level. I'm of the opinion that that is the manager's primary task - to get the players to play for him.

Rafa does not appear to be doing this at the moment. A few may disagree but the foorball has been getting worse this season. I'm not making any shouts yet as 1.) He hasn't had enpough time for most to make a sound judgement and 2.) Who else is there?

I'm think most fans (if not the board) will accept a few errors on the manager's part if the football is enthralling. But boring, cautious football AND no success/progress for a sustained period and the knives will come out and rightly so in my opinion.

I know times have changed and all that, so it is sometimes pointless to bring up the past, but would you rather have Roy's 1996 3rd finish or Rafa's 2007 currently third placed team? It's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerened.

[Steven - Dublin]

Maybe Rafa is the best man for the job as manager of Liverpool FC but we're just not good enough to win the league.

[Rafa El Gaffer]

Seeing as I am, and I know there are a few classic Racing fans about:

This is what it has been like to watch Liverpool under Rafa.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7BySA3tDGU

Liverpool - Dancing Brave Chelski - Sharastani




This is what happened in Spain under Rafa.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-grCjvnxehI

(Bertrando- Real, Arazi - Valencia)


This is what I wouldn't mind seeing......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ltl4uKIFoU

(Tiznow - Liverpool Chelski/Man u - Sakhee)



Newcastle's is the best though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GwarAwadn0

[Matigol]

He's the man as far as I'm concerned. Winning the league against the other three is not an easy task, even harder when you have less resources. What he achieved at Valencia was remarkable. Opposition don't come any bigger than Barca and Real. I think to demand the remarkable (which is basically what people are saying) is unrealistic and unfair.

I think he's done a great job so far. Yes, we're still a work in progress and yes it isn't perfect (if it was we'd be top of the league and probably not having this discussion). We're improving, but everybody else isn't standing still.

We need to improve offensively but to compare our current brand of play Houllier's is well wide of the mark. We play good football, possession football. You can see where Rafa wants to be but it's going to take time to get there.

Season 1: 5th place, Carling cup final and European Cup
Season 2: 3rd place (highest points tally for years) and FA Cup
Season 3: Currently 3rd place and in last 16 of European Cup

People are suggesting that unless we win the league in season 4 he's out? Do me a favour.

[RPS]

Interesting analogy with Dancing Brave, REG. Though first of all I have to say that I'm not allowed access to clips on YouTube in work. I'm assuming it's the 1986 Derby?

Not sure that supporters of Rafa will like the analogy. After all, everyone knows what happened to Mr G.Starkey after his ride in the Derby. Supposedly the best horse in the race. Considered one of the best winners of the Arc in the modern era - but suffered at the hands of a mad tactician at Epsom.

Mmmmmmmmmm.

[Real Deep]

The temptation to write "Hi, we're TTW&R - obviously we've never met" in response to some of the posts has been difficult.

Do us a favour mate, can you actually do that next time, because I'm fucked if I know what posts you're referring to.;)

Website forum in "Someone asked the question, people gave opinion" shocker.

:confused: You've lost me again. I started this thread to give my opinion and stimulate debate. I can't find a post from anyone on here that's expressed any kind of shock at people giving their opinions.

You wanna be a cheerleader? Get a pair of pom poms and a short skirt then.

Who are you referring to? All I've read on this thread is people with differing opinions.

[Rafa El Gaffer]

Interesting analogy with Dancing Brave, REG. Though first of all I have to say that I'm not allowed access to clips on YouTube in work. I'm assuming it's the 1986 Derby?

Not sure that supporters of Rafa will like the analogy. After all, everyone knows what happened to Mr G.Starkey after his ride in the Derby. Supposedly the best horse in the race. Considered one of the best winners of the Arc in the modern era - but suffered at the hands of a mad tactician at Epsom.

Mmmmmmmmmm.

Brought a smile to my face to read that post mate. Thank you.

It was indeed the 86 Derby. Not so much that I think Benitez is a "mad tactician" I was talking more about the actual horses. I.E No matter how well Liverpool finish, you can not give your competitors as big a head start as we do each season.

In case you wondered the last race was the 1990 Breeders Cup Sprint where Dayjur looked all set to land the prize then well you know the rest....

[Psychoticmonkey]

Okay, I'll start:

Left back 2005: Riise, Traore or Warnock.

2007: Riise or Aurelio.

Aurelio's far better than Traore or Warnock. Not a good defender, but infinitely better on the ball than Riise as well.

I think he gets some unfair stick on here, and his injuries have been infuriating. I'd say that without Kewell, our best left sided combination is Riise and Aurelio.

I really rate him.

[RPS]

Quite right about giving opponents a huge lead. Even watching Starkey riding now I'm mystified as to how long he kept his job. He was never the smoothest of jockeys was he?

That's the first time I've seen the Dayjur clip for years. It's strange because I was certain the skip/jump happened further out. I forgot how close to the line it was.


Better let the rest get back to Benitez.

[skerry]

One of the bigger doubts about Rafa is his ability in the transfer market...Too much talk about Rafa getting to buy his 'real' targets when he more than likely could have done so if he hadn't blown small pockets of loose change on players who will never ever be first choice...
Regarding two (three?) notable transfer decisions in the last 2 years--Owen (to Madrid and resigning) and Gerrard--how much imput do you think the manager had?

As for the small change theory, the players we didn't get, was the problem transfer fees....or wages?

[Real Deep]

That doesn't mean most want him sacked, but it does allow you to understand why Big Ed pours scorn on the Genius tag given by the owner.

Got to say, and I know he most probably couldn't give a flying fuck what I think;) , but I thought Mr. Kelly's 'greatest genius' comment was a bit below the belt. If that had been printed in a tabloid, there'd have been a post up on here in about 5 minutes flat.

If Rafa had of said it himself, then fire away, but the comment came from an excitable new owner, who used a comment that two of the players had made to him, as part of his charm offensive.

Good to hear the players have that kind of respect for the manager, but you'd never him say something like that. "NEVER call me the 'special one'."

Criticism's one thing, but I think he deserves a bit more respect than that.

[RED CORNER]

Posted by Big Ed.

and if next season is 'iffy'?

One of the bigger doubts about Rafa is his ability in the transfer market, since most of the successful Valencia team was there waiting for him and his knights in shining armour keep reminding us of what he did with 'those' players in Istanbul.

Given one of Parry's little mantras has been "you can only sell the family silver once" - I could say something about an accountant's ingenuity here but I won't - I think it's more than fair to ask if new people are going to take time and measure just whether that new money truly is in safe hands.

Too much talk about Rafa getting to buy his 'real' targets when he more than likely could have done so if he hadn't blown small pockets of loose change on players who will never ever be first choice.

But maybe I'd better not say any of this just in case the national press are looking in and we spark any more conjecture




'Knights in shining armour' Steve?

Like RD, I'm not sure who exactly some of your posts and the sarcasm on this thread are aimed at. I'm defending a manager, who, whilst not perfect, has done some great things already at this Club and given that he has achieved in both of his 1st two seasons I'd say that allows him more than a little grace.
If we have an 'iffy' season next year and it's clear we are not making progress then the knives WILL be out and not hidden under cloaks as they appear to be on this thread. My view is that he should still be given time. He may well have inherited the team at Valencia but it was him who brought the success with that team, not the previous manager.
How much time should he be given? Well,how long is a piece of string, etc? But, given that football is all about wanting it now,these days, then I'd say he's got 2 seasons maximum and that's sad.
I get the feeling that there are some on this thread ( and I include you, Steve ), are chomping at the bit to let rip, where Rafa' is concerned.

[Big Ed]

I get the feeling that there are some on this thread ( and I include you, Steve ), are chomping at the bit to let rip, where Rafa' is concerned.
Read the last diary, mate, and tell me if you think I'm "chomping at the bit"!

You're a long-term reader: when have you ever known me not to say EXACTLY what I meant?

I've seen all the wonders that any football fan could reasonably have a right to expect - and a hell of a lot more on top of that. If this club had stayed in Moores hands and we'd said "look we're gonna do as well as we can with reasonable ticket prices, a far less craven attitude to TV and telling greedy players to fuck off" they'd have got full support from me.

But they don't do they? Every fucking year it gets worse, and now they've sold their arses to the highest bidder. That changes things: I admire Benitez as a man and as a coach (technically), but in league terms we weren't meeting the demands pre-Gillett & Hicks. Throughout this thread I and a few others have constantly said "so what happens now?"

When I want the club to sack Benitez I will say so, as I did 16 months before they finally did it to Houllier and got a whole pile of grief from Internet cheerleaders JOKE! ;) for my troubles.

[Big Ed]

Got to say, and I know he most probably couldn't give a flying fuck what I think;) , but I thought Mr. Kelly's 'greatest genius' comment was a bit below the belt. If that had been printed in a tabloid, there'd have been a post up on here in about 5 minutes flat.

Criticism's one thing, but I think he deserves a bit more respect than that.
I was admittedly in smartarse/diary mode on that one.

If anything I was trying to point out that Hicks will turn 180 degrees in the blink of an eye (or the drop of two league places?).

That said, we've been commenting on some of Rafa's 'foibles' all season and the comment struck me as being immensely funny and ripe for sarcasm.

First issue, 1989. Old habits etc.

I think someone did say the mere existence of this thread could cause conjecture on Rafa's future, but I can't be arsed ploughing through it all again.

My, this thread's turned weird.

[Rafa El Gaffer]

Not sure about this Dancing Brave analogy. I mean Dancing Brave was actually catching up. Really quickly.

We're not.

Dancing Brave was the best horse around then.

We're not. (erm, the best horse, you know what i mean though)

Give me a break you try and find a way. :P

It isn't as easy as it looks. I am happy with my Newcastle Comparisson anyway.:D

[Rushian]

I've seen all the wonders that any football fan could reasonably have a right to expect - and a hell of a lot more on top of that. If this club had stayed in Moores hands and we'd said "look we're gonna do as well as we can with reasonable ticket prices, a far less craven attitude to TV and telling greedy players to fuck off" they'd have got full support from me.

The problem with that attitude Steve it it leaves you open to accusations of selfishness from those who haven't seen all the wonders any football fan could reasonably have the right to expect. We're lucky to have seen great players in great teams managed to league title successes on a regular basis. The younger generation will suggest we've had our cake, eaten it, and are hoarding the rest of the cakes because we don't want LFC to change as the rest of football changes.

[Rafa El Gaffer]

Well...Newcastle were miles in front. Dayjur wasn't. :p

Not towards the end they weren't ;)

[Big Ed]

The problem with that attitude Steve it it leaves you open to accusations of selfishness from those who haven't seen all the wonders any football fan could reasonably have the right to expect. We're lucky to have seen great players in great teams managed to league title successes on a regular basis. The younger generation will suggest we've had our cake, eaten it, and are hoarding the rest of the cakes because we don't want LFC to change as the rest of football changes.

Absolutely, guilty as charged, and under the 'current' regime it was often a case of falling between two stools.

It was a case of picking one of two extremes. They've picked one, so we run with it for better or worse. With that comes huge responsibility and demands on the owners, the fans, the players, the manager. If anyone doesn't meet them then rationalisation of "hey we're doing alright" aren't gonna wash I'm afraid.

[Rafa El Gaffer]

Everton's title challenge....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJPH71PeOuw

[Real Deep]

I think someone did say the mere existence of this thread could cause conjecture on Rafa's future, but I can't be arsed ploughing through it all again.

My, this thread's turned weird.

I think that was Red Corner? Right shut the bastard down immediately and delete the evidence!

As for the thread turning weird: it has a bit hasn't it.:confused:

I understand why some of the questions people are asking are being asked about Rafa - I've done enough of it myself. I've personally come to my own conclusion though; I'd be prepared to stick with this fella for the long term and see where it takes us.

Might be out of our hands if the pull of Madrid becomes too much for him, but there's not much anyone can do about that...

[The_Red_Boyo]

Mine is not a reliable opinion to ask as to whether I think Rafa is "The Man" or not. At one point during Evans' reign I thought he was "The Man", & I had similar inclinations (ooh er missus!) at a certain point during Houllier's time as manager. As to whether I think Rafa is "The Man" or not? To be quite honest I have no idea, some of his dealings in the transfer market have been suspect, & I've not been 100% convinced about his tactics, but so far, with a European Cup & F.A Cup under his belt it's a case of so far, so good. Whether the addition of the all mighty dollar from the new owners will be the final push required to take us to title No 19. I'm afraid only time will tell.

[WarrenG]

I understand why some of the questions people are asking are being asked about Rafa - I've done enough of it myself. I've personally come to my own conclusion though; I'd be prepared to stick with this fella for the long term and see where it takes us.

And that's where I've arrived as well - although not out of anything Benitez has done - I've never really fallen for the whole "Genius" type thing. It's more a case of I could do with a couple years of stability as there's enough going on off the pitch without starting from scratch again.

[emlyn's song]

Winning the league against the other three is not an easy task, even harder when you have less resources.

Totally agree. It's funny though that this was a point I made countless times in the Houllier days i.e./ we were "punching our weight" at the time in terms of league placing.

Houllier, Benitez, or indeed ANY manager would be a miracle worker to finish higher than Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal in one season. To think it is possible is being unrealistic in my view. The good news is (as Big Ed said earlier) that the new investments might change things.

[Big Ed]

ES

You didn't want Houllier to go in 2004, am I right?

Arsenal 90 pts, Liverpool 60 - after a 19 pt gap behind United the season before.

Anyway, this might be the source of a new thread; what our weight actually is.

Fact is, once a manager gets to within 10 points of the champions and gets 30m to spend (20 in Gerard's case) I'm not entirely sure it's feasible to expect the club to stick with someone who then falls so far behind.

If GH's "blip" actually had been that then fine, but it wasn't.

So what will the gap have to be before Rafa's put under the microscope: 15? 20? 30???

Because I'm almost certain it won't be 9 in May 2007.

[emlyn's song]

Fact is, once a manager gets to within 10 points of the champions and gets 30m to spend (20 in Gerard's case).

The problem is that £30m in Chelsea and Man Utd terms is invariably ONE PLAYER. Houllier and Benitez would have to buy three/four/five players with that amount.

I'm not getting into one about Houllier with you. I wouldn't want to be called a cheerleader now would I? My point is that ANY manager you choose to bring to Liverpool would find it difficult to get past Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal in the recent / current finanancial climate. This COULD be about to change under Gillett and Hicks.

[Big Ed]

but if Chelsea and United get 20 zillion pounds, what does that matter? We still shouldn't be going from 80 pts (2002) to 60 points (2004) should we? Their spending can have little impact on that surely? And I'll say exactly the same about Rafa.

If Rafa was keeping going with anything similar to last season (ie if we'd beaten Chelsea twice instead of losing twice we'd be champions instead) or gaining an acceptable total that could be seen, even by the likes of me ;) as a platform to build on, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

As for Houllier I wasn't "getting into" anything mate. I have the feeling you wanted Houllier to remain, which given the gap between ourselves and first made me wonder (now and at the time) what would have made you change your mind?

[emlyn's song]

but if Chelsea and United get 20 zillion pounds, what does that matter? We still shouldn't be going from 80 pts (2002) to 60 points (2004) should we? Their spending can have little impact on that surely? And I'll say exactly the same about Rafa.

If Rafa was keeping going with anything similar to last season (ie if we'd beaten Chelsea twice instead of losing twice we'd be champions instead) or gaining an acceptable total that could be seen, even by the likes of me ;) as a platform to build on, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

As for Houllier I wasn't "getting into" anything mate. I have the feeling you wanted Houllier to remain, which given the gap between ourselves and first made me wonder (now and at the time) what would have made you change your mind?

Is it all about points though as opposed to placings? Houllier's 80 points in 2002 would have won us the Premier League in 1997 (United won it with 75) but the same total would have left us 15 points behind top in 2005 (Chelsea won it with 95). A 20 points difference in the total needed to win the title! Strangely, the same as the 80 to 60 you mentioned above.

We know stats can prove anything, when you are selective with them. We sacked Houllier for 4th place in 2004 and Rafa finished 5th in 2005. If I was cheerleading for Houllier, this particular stat would be bolstered if I left out the fact that Rafa won the European Cup in 2005. ;)

Since 2000, Liverpool have finished in 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th, 4th, 5th and 3rd. Maybe we do need to address the "punching our weight" issue? For me it was 3rd pre-Abrahmovich and 4th currently. It is ALL about money now.

Over to you, George and Tom.

[Ian K]

Is him being "the man" all about whether or not he wins us the league?
If so, for the record, if we want to win it any time soon - say within 3 years? then I think it's more likely with him than without.
But what about whether or not he's the man to get us playing football again, especially if you are of the opinion that Chelsea and the Mancs are almost uncatchable (though as ES says that MAY change with the investment.)
It amuses me that some of our fans, even on this most erudite of forums now claim that we play good football.
When is that then? True there is the odd game, there are also a good few 20 - 30 minute spells where we knock it around well and there are even some moments of (very) rare brilliance - the 2nd goal at W.Ham, the 3rd goal against Villa.
But the general footballing philosophy isn't there, and never has been under Rafa.
Why don't people care? It seems to me they don't anyway, as I'm often the only one going on about it.
He gets away with it because it is admittedly better than it was under GH, and also because in all those home games where we sleepwalk our way through the 1st half in order to gain "control" we usually end up winning. All's well that ends well and the ale tastes better after after a win doesn't it, and possibly helps us forget how the win was achieved. He also gets away with it due to the enormous good will he generated after Istanbul, and rightly so. But that won't last forever, and I haven't even mentioned most of the away games.

Here's a ridiculous and overly simplistic hypothetical for you.
Look ahead to the next 5 years.
You are offered more of the same under Rafa (though it will presumably have to be with better players for the next bit to happen) and are guaranteed 2 titles.
Or instead you can have us playing like Arsenal did in the 1st half the other night under Rafa or A.N.Other with no guarantee of anything. Notice that doesn't mean we won't win the league, just that there's no guarantee of it.

I'd go for the Arsenal model every time.
Though partly echoing what Big Ed said I have seen us win the league 11 times, and I wouldn't want Rushian accusing me of being selfish, so if others who've never seen us win it go for the other option I'd certainly understand that point of view.
Any other football fans out there?
Or am I now the only purist in the village?
;)

[RPS]

I was going to post this earlier but got distracted by Dancing Brave and Greville Starkey...

I'm with Ian. It's not about the league. It's not about number of points gained at the end of a season. It's not about buying players for big fees. For me it's about playing football again.

Under Houllier the football was rotten. Now just because Rafa's style is better than GH's it doesn't mean it's acceptable - it isn't.

Since I've been going the match I've seen us win the league 9 times. There are probably younger reds who have spent more money than I ever did watching Liverpool and will feel they "deserve" something. It's likely that those reds will accept an inferior product, in terms of style, if it means we win the league.

It's just that it's not like that for me. I still think loads of our football is miserable. If I was still living in my folks' house I try and convince myself I'd go to more games. It's a lie though. Paying incredible amounts of money to watch what is, all too often, poor football doesn't thrill me.

With more money Rafa may be able to buy more of his preferred players. Though the only thing you can guarantee with more money is higher transfer fees and higher wages - not a change in philosophy.

Rafa has been here long enough to establish his own style of football. Some things may change with the new investment. We may win the league, we may win in Europe again, but I have to say that there's no evidence that we are going to even try and play exciting, attack-minded footbal.

And that's Rafa's fault.

[emlyn's song]

ISince I've been going the match I've seen us win the league 9 times. There are probably younger reds who have spent more money than I ever did watching Liverpool and will feel they "deserve" something. It's likely that those reds will accept an inferior product, in terms of style, if it means we win the league.

Quite interested by this. Since Liverpool were promoted to the top flight and finished 8th in their first season, they have never finished lower than 8th. When you consider that since that time we finished 8th only once more 7th only once, it means that every other season was a top six finish. That is 1963 - 2006 and this will continue this season. That really is a fantastic achievement by any standards, so when you throw in domestic cup and Europeans successes, it is clear that we HAVE been spoilt ... even those younger Reds. There are probably fans of Newcastle, Fulham, Villa et al who are just as loyal and spend just as much on their football, who have hardly seen a cup let alone a title.

It's all about the money now, not the manager, not the style of play. Unless you have the money, you can't compete with United & Chelsea. Chelsea won one title in their history until two more came in the last two seasons. There's only one reason for this: Abrahmovich. I honestly believe that if he had bought Tottenham, they'd be Champions now.

[Ian K]

It's all about the money now, not the manager, not the style of play. Unless you have the money, you can't compete with United & Chelsea.

So true and very sad.
But if you can forget for a moment the fact that things might change for the better (for us anyway) with the investment, if you can come to terms with the fact that competing with Chelsea and the Mancs is unrealistic, then watching us fail while playing football is preferable to watching us fail while boring the bollocks off us.
Especially bearing in mind just about the only thing the new owners have said with any conviction is that ticket prices will go up.
:confused:

[WibbleClarke]

I must say I'm in total agreement with IanK and RPS here regarding our style and a few cracking team goals a season should not convince anyone otherwise.

I'm 28 and as a fan witnessed only two titles, not really at an age when I could appreciate them. Now when Ian mentiones the guarantee of 2 titles, well that is a little tempting to go for.

But sill I would opt for more attractive football rather than the style which has gained us our relative current success, if you can call it that:confused:
During the Houllier years from about October 2001 I spent all the games frustrated and shouting my balls off. At the telly of course. Rafa's team is not that bad but I am starting to get frustrated with our style more and more.

As I said before I'd take Roy's 1996 third over Rafa's 2006 third anyday.

As for "The Man" I don't think any of us can say whether he is or not as the title depends just as much on the other teams results as it does LFC. But I will want to stick with him for a long time unless we go backwards continually or have an amazing opportunity for an exciting, attacking manager.

[Big Ed]

There were hints that money would become paramount even by the mid 90's. The thought of Arsenal doing what they've done in the face of United's popularity and Chelsea's wallet (plus we've not been slouches ourselves) would have nothing more than a pipedream. Enter Arsene Wenger.

You can paint a similar scenario for Liverpool in the late 50's.

I'm happy to accept that we need an almighty talent in the manager's office to return to our former glories. The whole mania with the money suggests that what the club actually wants is to be fairly successful even if we've just got a pretty good manager in charge.

Which is fair enough I suppose, when we can have nights like Istanbul to keep things 'ticking over'.

I started a thread like ES's last post, it's vanished off the board, emphasising how fucking lucky men of my age group have been. Bar Heysel and Hillsborough I wouldn't change a thing even in the current climate.

But go back to mid-table mediocrity? Frankly, that scares me. If Liverpool can't be the best club in the world, they must at least aim for that. Hence the takeover.

We're still in there scrapping and that's all I want.

[Big Ed]

Just read Ian's bit about the football and I agree with that too.

Just don't think it's an either/or situation. If this team cut loose I think the reuslts would be better, and with such a hands-on manager I can only come to one conclusion: that they follow the manager's instructions.

Hence the doubts about his future?

[Big Chief]

I'm interested by the fact that the thread has turned into a discussion about the football itself.

We talk about revising the past quite often on here. Back in the mid 90's, I watched as an angry teenager while we floundered time and again at the business end of proceedings. The Coventry defeat was the pinacle of that period's under achievement and the most painful defeat I've ever felt. Closely followed by Chelsea in the cup.

And yet.... I have come to look back on that period as a great one. Remember the week we put 9 past City without reply? That's what that team was capable of. The Sunday afternoon late '95 against United where we absolutely destroyed them, how far away from that are we now in terms of the football?

I haven't seen us play the like of it for far too long. As a mid 20's bloke with no real experience of us winning the league, I'm still waiting for that above all else. But take away the pragmatism of two Chelsea titles and you are left with the feeling that great football isn't just a viewing pleasure, it's a necessity.

Oh to have the attitude of United or the style of Arsenal. Liverpool, looking up at their rivals in so many ways - the story of the last 17 years.

[Rushian]

Stuff the football. Give me a league title.

[Real Deep]

But the general footballing philosophy isn't there, and never has been under Rafa.

Apart from a few moments here and there (we played some lovely stuff against Galatasaray at home), I can't argue with the fact that the vast majority of this season has been very boring to watch. Everton at home was a prime example of us at our worst; too long too early.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's part of Rafa's general philosophy on football though. Look at the football that Valencia played under him for a start; I think it's also true to say that the style in which we've played under him has been a really mixed bag.

In 04/05 we played some of the worst football we've played under him, and weirdly some of the best as well. Obviously the European Cup run is the first thing you think of: the football we played against Leverkusen away was superb; we moved the ball around with flair and pace that night, and it wasn't the only time that year that we played like that. I thought we played some really entertaining football that year at home in the League. My favourite goal that season was a good example of what we were capable of playing at times - Baros' goal against Newcastle: Kewell turns someone inside out from just inside our half before releasing Baros with an inch-perfect ball, and Baros rounds the keeper and plays it into the empty net. Beautiful football played at pace, reminiscent of Dalglish and Rush(not that I'm comparing the players). It wasn't the first time either, that those two linked up like that in that season; I wonder if that's what Rafa was thinking of when he made that bold (but almost definitely wrong) decision, when he went with Kewell behind Baros in Istanbul?

05/06 was a mixed bag. We churned the results out a lot more consistently but the entertainment value wasn't as good as the previous year, even if it is an undeniable fact that we had made progress.

That brings us to this season. As I said earlier, I think that it's hard to pin our style down seeing as we can play in so many different styles and so many formations. It's fair to say that we're not that easy on the eye though, for the most part.

In my opinion we have a lack of flair, a lack of skill and a lack of pace in our attack. As a result we're far too direct. On the whole, we don't work the ball around enough before trying to penetrate a defence; we just go for the jugular. Against the shite teams we expose their frailties eventually, but against the decent sides - or a side that sets it's stall out as well as Everton did ;) - you have to do better than that. We don't always play like that, and I think it's unfair to say that it's part of Rafa's footballing philosophy; but we do use that long diagonal ball too often.

The strange thing, is you wouldn't think that we'd go down that line under a coach from Spain. I found this from the new Shankly book:

We realised at Liverpool that you can score a goal by playing from the back. We learned this through playing the Latins in Europe. It might be cat annd mouse for a while, waiting for that opening to appear. It's all very simple really - but it's effective.

Improvisation! If your players can improvise and adjust to what's happening you've got a chance.

The system we devised was designed to confuse the opposition. And it was economical. You want everyone to do their share.

It's important thing is that everyone can control the ball and do the basic things. It's control and pass - control and pass.

If you delay, the opposition are suddenly all behind the ball. So you are looking for somebody who can control it instantly and give a forward a pass. And that gives you more space.

You see some teams playing and it seem as if nobody wants the ball. They turn their back on each other. But at Liverpool, there is always somebody to help you.

So this is the secret. Get it. Give an early pass. Switch the ball around. You might not seem to be getting very far, but the opposition pattern is changing. And the space opens up for the final pass.

The game's changed a lot, and yet that basic football philosophy still applies. Look at the way Arsenal play for the perfect example. How much of their style of play is dictated by the ability of their players though? I think it plays a very significant part. Does anyone think that if Wenger and Benitez swapped squads for a year that the same players would start hitting the ball long under Benitez, and start playing scintillating football under Wenger? I don't. Look at the way Lyon play under Houllier if you don't believe me.

I think the style of football a team plays is very much down to the attributes of the players within it. Pack the team full of skill and pace and the team will play with skill and pace. If you ask me that is Wenger's football philosophy.

I think that Rafa will realise - in fact I suspect he already has - that if we want to compete with the other 3, then we're going to have to at least match the quality. More pace, more skill, and better technique is required if we want to be the best. Maybe then, we'll finally see the kind of slick football that we're all desperate to see us play.

To answer your question though Ian, I'd forego all that in the short-term to see us win the title again. This club desperately needs to win the title; the manner of the victory isn't important in the circumstances. I suspect that we won't win it until things improve in the 'style' department in any case...

[WibbleClarke]

I'm glad this has turned into a discussion about our style and am relieved to see a few acknowledging our lack of any fluency. I was sort of under the impression that most on here thought we had been playing good football during the recent good run.

Peversely, the perfromance that satisfied me most this season was the 3-6 game against The Arsenal! In an attacking sense anyway.

We had a sort of heated discussion about it but I thought that night we played some good football on the floor, with players working hard, but working hard to make space for each other and recieve passes. When we attacked that night I felt we would score. I can't say that about any of the other games this season apart from maybe Gala as RD mentioned.

It's all folly anyway as all our talk means dick but ....pass 'n' move, please Rafa. It's the Liverpool groove.




:o

[Ian K]

I've become a bit confused about Rafa's footballing philosophy when he was with Valencia.
I always did, and still do watch a fair bit of the Spanish footie, simply because it's such a good spectacle. And yes, when Valencia were on, they impressed me too, as they did when they played us.
But unless Babs tells me otherwise, they were known as a rather dull, slightly negative side at the time in Spain.
The Crushing Machine?
Suggests grudging admiration at best doesn't it? and although as I said I watched them quite often, I obviously didn't watch them as much as the Spanish press/media did.
But then I thought it might be down to bias or jealousy by a press who were struggling to come to terms with the audacity of a team who dared to be better than their darlings. Plus, anyone would have seemed negative compared to Real at the time, and Barca are always easy on the eye. So if you don't play like those two, you are percieved as being negative, whereas in real terms you are no such thing.
But then when I gave more thought to the matter of how they played, it occurred to me that just as now with Liverpool, Rafa's Valencia only truly entertained when it suited them.
You develop a soft spot for them and so only remember the good bits, and forget the way they shut up shop and stopped playing, which is what they did against us, and also the times they didn't start playing 'till later in the game, which is certainly what Liverpool often do now. They arguably did a bit of both in the UEFA Cup final, when despite only being up against ten men for most of the match, they STILL never really cut loose. They did just enough, and fuck the idea of providing a spectacle for the watching millions, a spectacle of which you are well capable of providing if you want to.
But he didn't want to!
It's something we see now, we are capable of cutting loose and looking good AND entertaining, but often stubbornly refuse to do so. We also see it with those 20 and 30 minute spells that I mentioned in the other post.
If his philosophy at Valencia now confuses me, if totally bamboozles me these days at our club.
How does he decide which teams he's going to blitz from the start, and which are going to get the 1st half sleepwalk treatment, especially when you consider there are times when we play with a decent attacking tempo against the good teams (at Anfield I'm talking about, oh and Chelsea at OT in the FA cup semi) and the shit teams are treated with far too much respect?
Where's the logic in that, even when it works?
It's probably unfair of me to be using Arsenal of recent vintage as some sort of yardstick as their football is as good as anything I've ever seen, and I don't expect us to end up playing like that no matter what happens.
And even if I'm comparing us with previous Liverpool teams, (yes, that old millstone) if I go back far enough then Shankly's teams weren't always that easy on the eye, and they weren't that progressive in their away games.
But whether you were a 4th division team in the 3rd round of the FA Cup, or Inter Milan in the semi final of the European Cup, you got blasted off the park at Anfield.
So many of our Anfield performances have actually been "away match football" as far as I'm concerned, this is the main thing that's pissed me off.
If we can't attack with a flourish, (even though we can) then just attack, which is what ANY team playing at home against inferior opposition should be doing, EVERY time, and of course bear in mind that almost everybody in the EPL these days fits in to the category of inferior opposition.
Going in at HT 2-0 up is a pretty decent way of "controlling thee game" isn't it?
But as I've also already said, we usually end up winning those "dozy" home games, despite the 1st half inertia, and it has been 17 years and counting. So if more of the same contributes to us winning #19 any time soon then I'll be celebrating like a looney with the "win it at all costs" crowd.
Hypocrite?
Probably, but being a football fan is never as straightforward as it should be is it?
;)

[Real Deep]

Rafa's Valencia, from what I saw, were a 'crushing machine' - but dull? Well, I suppose that depends on your perspective. Just because they weren't known for 'cutting loose' like Real or Barca at their best, doesn't necessarily mean dull, boring, football.

The salient point for me, is that it most certainly wasn't ugly. They weren't known for playing long diagonal balls for a start.;)

How does he decide which teams he's going to blitz from the start, and which are going to get the 1st half sleepwalk treatment, especially when you consider there are times when we play with a decent attacking tempo against the good teams (at Anfield I'm talking about, oh and Chelsea at OT in the FA cup semi) and the shit teams are treated with far too much respect?
Where's the logic in that, even when it works?

Well, that depends on whether or not you think that it's a deliberate tactic. We all know that he likes to try and control as much as he can, but it's not always possible.;)

[Real Deep]

Interesting reading 10 months on.

I've had my moments when I've said that if we don't achieve this or that, then it might be time for a change, but when I've got what I think is my sensible head on, I end up coming to the same conclusion: unless it becomes very obvious that we're going backwards, I think stability and continuity is preferable to anything else.

[Kopite]

Interesting reading 10 months on.

I've had my moments when I've said that if we don't achieve this or that, then it might be time for a change, but when I've got what I think is my sensible head on, I end up coming to the same conclusion: unless it becomes very obvious that we're going backwards, I think stability and continuity is preferable to anything else.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/830000/images/_832236_johnmoncur300.jpg

Plus I don't believe there is anyone better out there.

I'm hoping that this summer see's a trimming back of the squad (Voronin, Riise, Momo, Carson) and an increase in attacking quality (e.g. David Villa and a top, top quality wide player) and a quality, specialist left-back.

[Real Deep]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/830000/images/_832236_johnmoncur300.jpg

Plus I don't believe there is anyone better out there.

I'm hoping that this summer see's a trimming back of the squad (Voronin, Riise, Momo, Carson) and an increase in attacking quality (e.g. David Villa and a top, top quality wide player) and a quality, specialist left-back.

I thought they'd equalised then yer bastard!

I'm glad you John Moncur.;)

[Evs]

Interesting reading 10 months on.

I've had my moments when I've said that if we don't achieve this or that, then it might be time for a change, but when I've got what I think is my sensible head on, I end up coming to the same conclusion: unless it becomes very obvious that we're going backwards, I think stability and continuity is preferable to anything else.


Stop on.

[Kopite]

The Mancs have lost. Win tomorrow and it's on, drop any points and it's off. It really is that simple.

[orcore]

Strange logic. So a draw at the 5th placed team would be no use even though it puts us a point closer to united than we were before this round of matches. Presumably if United had won today we were out of it?
I don't for one minute think we will win it this year but we need to keep getting closer which I think we will do.

[Real Deep]

Strange logic. So a draw at the 5th placed team would be no use even though it puts us a point closer to united than we were before this round of matches. Presumably if United had won today we were out of it?
I don't for one minute think we will win it this year but we need to keep getting closer which I think we will do.

I think the point he's making is that you don't get too many chances to make some points up when you're behind, so you've got to take your chance when it comes along.

[redrule]

Manchester City has played well at home, and I think they rested 1 or 2 of their better players against Blackburn to be ready for us.

City won against united at home so we are in for a tough game, and even if we play good we are not granted any points.

[Real Deep]

Really interesting reading through all the old comments.

Thought it might be interesting to ask the question again, so:

Rafa: The Man?;)

For the record, I've had a wobble here and there and have criticised him on the odd occasion - sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly - but overall I've never really got to the stage where I thought we should be looking elsewhere.

He is 'The Man' for this job, and he always was. He's actually getting better at it as well...:)

[Jimmys Chippy]

Rafa: The Man?;)

For the record, I've had a wobble here and there and have criticised him on the odd occasion - sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly - but overall I've never really got to the stage where I thought we should be looking elsewhere.

He is 'The Man' for this job, and he always was. He's actually getting better at it as well...:)

I agree with that, all except that I've never criticised him unfairly;).

There is no-one else I would rather have in his place, even if we don't go on to win the league this year, which I don't think we will, I would still like him to remain. With the budget we have there aren't many, if any, who you could say could come in and win the title with the same funds. Rafa is turning us into Valencia, a team that shows it can mix it with the big spenders by using a template he has designed and has been proven to work, and I don't think he is all that far off a title challenging side. My worry is that Rafa will adopt another Valencia tactic and fuck off should we win the title. I think not only would he be winning the title forass, but it will be used as two fingers to stick up at Tom and George on his way out of the door for their lack of support and faith in him.

[Big Chief]

I also re-read this thread recently, this and a few others. To be honest I was partly checking up on myself as much as anything else, the forum acts as a diary of your thoughts and emotions, sometimes it's hard to recall exactly how you felt, the opinion you'd formed at a particular time. Retracing your steps helps to give you clarity of thought.

I didn't read anything that took me especially by surprise though, even given our current good form and the effect it's having on my viewpoint. Which is to say that I absolutely retract what I said after the Reading defeat. At that point I said I wanted him replaced, now, I don't, I've changed my mind.

And yet..... it's still too early for me to turn my opinion full circle and say we can win the league under him. I've said before I think he's a tactical egotist and that opinion remains, even if his consistency in selection and tactical approach shows a change in attitude (Sammy Lee's influence perhaps?). I just expect him to drop a clanger; a stupid selection, a strange formation, a bizarre substitution (Ngog at Villa instead of Babel?) for example. Something which will derail us entirely of his own doing.

If we get to Christmas and he's done nothing of the sort..... nah, can't bring myself to say it, I'm not the dare to dream type.

[Taksin]

I remember talking to a red not long after he'd taken over who said 'we've got a manager now'. I thought that was right then and have never really doubted it since.

During the Chelsea game my mind drifted to an imaginary scenario where Klinsman was standing on the touchline and we looked lost as a team.

[redsam]

There's no doubt in my mind

Rafa is the best man to lead us